What are the chances that this William Norwood is not the nephew of Gateway Ancestor Henry Norwood?

Question

I've added category "Questionable Gateway Ancestors" to William N Norwood's profile in hopes of attracting some attention. Is this William Norwood the nephew of established Gateway Ancestor Henry Norwood (Norwood-613)? When was he born: 1623, 1615, or 1610? What are the chances that a second, unrelated William Norwood would show up in the same place at the same time as Henry? What are the chances that the William Norwood, son of Richard, never came to America.  What evidence is there for his life in England?  What degree of certainty is required to confirm his identity in England before he came to America? etc ...

Comments

Side connecting that Stuart line might help, because they are near in and have chance of documentation,that may lead too further suggestions. ( I love Stuart's they stocked together. And put of possibility one of them stewards, surely may have met some "Redlands"

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The Virginia William has some y-DNA tested descendants, though none are mentioned on WikiTree.  And no matches in England yet.  Here's a summary.

Answer 1

Boddie says he got it from Fairfax Harrison

https://books.google.com/books?id=a7tx6lhj-CkC&pg=PA332

Then he extracts the pedigree from Smyth (1567-1640)

https://archive.org/stream/berkeleymanuscri00smytuoft#page/235/

who was probably well-informed, because he and a Ligon were both raised together in the Berkeley household.

But Smyth says nothing about Surry (created 1652).  The words "(Surry, Virginia)" after William's name are inserted by Boddie.

 

 

Comments

Fairfax Harrison article is in VMHB, Vol 33 no. 1 (Jan 1925) p. 4, on JStor.  Says he was in Virginia in 1656 and cites "Journals H. B. 1619-59, p. 96".  I take it that's House of Burgesses?

I don't expect the record mentions Leckhampton, but it would be interesting if it mentioned a relationship to Gov. Berkeley.  Or Charles Norwood, who was the Clerk 1654-56.

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Thank you, RJ. Great answer.  I've elaborated on your citations in my response to John Schmeeckle below.  Yes, the Surry reference is added as if it was inside the quotation but does not appear in the 1883 printing of the 1618 paper.  Nor do the Virginia references regarding Henry's sons.

The 1925 Fairfax Harrison article is behind a paywall, so I haven't looked at that.

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The Fairfax Harrison article isn't helpful, it just says "Another authenticated member of the Leckhampton family was the William Norwood who was in Virginia in 1656".  No source for the "authentication", unless the House Journal is the source.

Boddie's policy was, you could rely implicitly on anything you found in print.  Just cite the source.  Like Wikipedia.

Boddie does the family again in his Lygon article, WMQ Vol.16 no. 2, April 1936, p. 306 at https://www.jstor.org/stable/1918807

(4) William Norwood was in Virginia in 1956 when he had a suit with Carberry Kygan (Burgess Journal 1619-59, p. 96).  He may have been the William Norwood who made his will in Surry, 1703.  Lt. Col. George Jordan was godfather of George Norwood, evidently his son.  His other children were probably Richard and William.  (See Valentine papers).  George Norwood died in North Carolina.  (See Grimes abstracts of wills).

This William Norwood is referred to by Mr. Fairfax Harrison in his article on Henry Norwood, Virginia Treasurer, as "an authenticated member of the Norwood Family."  (Va. Mag. Vol. 33. p. 4).W

Which goes without saying, but it's not quite what Harrison said.

 

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When it comes to real estate, and probably family ties, it's all about Location, location, location.

Land patent granted to Henry Norwood on 22 Sept. 1650 at 'Dancing Pointe' James City is upriver from the town by seven miles or so.  He owned it until at least 17 October 1660 when he gave power of attorney over it to Gov. William Berkeley.  William Norwood's property in 1661 in Surry County at upper Bailey's Creek near present day Spring Grove, VA is six miles as the crow flies away, right across the river.

Amazingly close, really. 

For Henry's property, Here's the transcription (digital scan) from Cavaliers and Pioneers:

To all &c. Whereas his most Ex-
cellent Majty. did by his Letters patterns
beareing date the 22th day of Septem-
ber 1650 give & grant unto his Trusty
Subject and Servt. HENRY NOR-
WOOD, Esqr., the office of being his
sd. Majtye. Treasurer of Virginia ***
& whereas the sd. Henry Norwood hath
by his deed beareing date the 17th of
Oct. 1660 Given power & authority to



me the sd. William Berkeley &c. to
execute and doe all and every thing
and things in the premisses by his sd.
Sacred Majty. to him the sayd Henry
Norwood, Esqr. in as ample manner as
he the sayd Henry could have done if
he had bin psonally present Now know
yee &c. unto JULIAN ALLAIN (or
Allam) 200 acs. according to ancient
lawfull bounds thereof now in posses-
sion of the sd. Julian att or neere
Dancing poynt in James Citty Co., be-
ing part of 700 acs. granted to Benja-
min Carroll deed., 16 May 1638 &
lately found to escheat &c, as by an in-
quisition &c. under the hand & seales of
the Jury sworne by Col. Miles Carey,
Escheator Genii, for this contrey &c. and
is now granted to the sd. Julian whoe
hath made her composition &c. 18
June 1663. Marginal note: Mrs. Al-
lain (or Allam) her pattent. P. 36,
(480).

For William's property I'm relying on a note in his Family Search profile, which misspells 'Spring Grove' as 'Spring Cove'.

SOURCE: Rootsweb 15 Nov 2001 archive - Eve S. Gregory, Director of Virginia Foundation for Archaeological Research replied concerning ... Burchen Swamp ... Carpenter property.... In the Upper Parish of Surry County ... a map in James D. Kornwolf's GUIDE TO THE BUILDINGS OF SURRY AND THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION. The general location of this property would be Hwy 40 and its junction with Hwy 10 at Spring Cove. Burchen Swamp lies along Bailey's Creek.... To the east of this lies a parcel that passed through many hands after the Floods, including J. Jennings, Rev. J. Dibnal, Ralph Creed, Carpenter, and finally in 1661 Wm. Norwood. This was right near Southwark Church # 1. Recorded that he emigrated to Isle of Wight in 1648 & in later in Surry Co, VA he married Lydia Jordan A List of Surry County Tithables taken 10 June 1668 in Southwarke Parish Compiled alphabetically by Eve Gregory from Surry County Deed Book 1652-1672, p. 316 Mr. Arthur JORDON 4 Lt. Col. JORDON 3 Mr. William Norwood 2 Desc. of Wm N Norwood "The Emigrant" by Ken Anderson, data shared March 2001 Ken writes . . . William Norwood's will was probated in Surry Co, VA on 7 March 1703. In it he bequeaths to his son George... his new dwelling house and 100 acres of land, plus livestock.... George was the only one who came to the same part of Bertie County....

Answer 2

Perhaps it would help to rephrase some of the questions in the original post.  For example:

What evidence is there that Richard Norwood of Leckhampton, Gloucestershire had a son William?  I don't see a single shred of primary source documentation.  There is a secondary source, "Southside Virginia Families" (p. 332) with the unsupported claim (coming from another secondary source) that William Norwood was "an authenticated member of the Norwood family of Leckhamption, Gloucestershire."  Okay, this has been "authenticated" -- but this authentication doesn't mention his father's name.  Sorry, but I have to wonder if "authenticated" means wild guess, or maybe wishful thinking.  Maybe there is evidence out there.  If so, it should be added to the profile.

However, when we look at the names of the children mentioned in William Norwood's will, we do find the names Richard and Elizabeth, which one would expect if William Norwood was the son of Richard and Elizabeth.  We also find the name George -- which appears to be the name of William's father-in-law, but this seems to involve a leap of faith.  (George Jordan was the god-father of William's son George Norwood, but does that mean that William's wife Lydia (surname not given) was the daughter of George Jordan?  [DISCLAIMER:  I haven't studied these families carefully, so maybe I'm missing something obvious here.  If so, please let me know, and I'll be pleased to stand corrected.]

Next question: Where is the baptism record of William Norwood, son of Richard?  What do you mean there isn't one?  Maybe Richard had a cash flow problem at the time and skipped the baptism to save money?  Maybe the minister was lazy or forgot?  Okay, these things happened, next question...

Are there any other baptisms of William Norwood, of the right age to be the immigrant to Virginia?  Hmm, check the IGI, check check check, HAH!

William Norwood, son of Thomas, was baptized 27 Aug. 1609 at St. Peters Thanet, Kent.  Could that have been the immigrant to Virginia?  We don't have any record that Richard Norwood of Leckhampton had a son William, but on the other hand William Norwood of Virginia didn't have a son Thomas (as far as we know). 

So that seems to put us back to square 1, with the fact that William Norwood of Virginia named a son Richard as the only evidence that William was the son of Richard of Leckhamption, together with the fact that Richard Norwood of Leckhampton's father and a brother were named William, together with the plausible supposition that William of Virginia was a kinsman (first cousin?) of Henry Norwood of Virginia. 

Right now, anyway, it seems that "questionable gateway ancestor" is about as good as it gets.  But of course who knows what further research might turn up.

Comments

John, I appreciate your rephrasing.  Honestly, I'm still coming up to speed when it comes to what one might call 'analytical' genealogy.  The way I phrased the question made it a bit of a 'leading question,' didn't it.

Now ... I'm only just beginning to examine the sources you refer to, so this reply is preliminary.  But the Southside Virginia Families page 332 link you cite seems to be citing a much older source, written by "John Smyth, of Nibley" apparently contemporaneously, in 1618 (but please check to see if I'm right) that lists the children of Richard Norwood and Elizabeth Stuard, and includes a William (obviously born before 1618).  Below I've copied the direct quote as scanned from that document.

From that starting point, isn't it safe to say that we're not questioning whether Richard had a son William but whether the William that was his son is the same one that happened to show up in the same place and the same time as Henry?

If I'm missing something, or if the Smyth paper is somehow bogus, please feel free to correct me.

 

The faid Richard Norwood fon of William, by Elizabeth his wife daughter of
Nicholas Stuard Do6lor of the civill lawe, hath iffue, Augufline, ffrancis, John,
William, Richaru, Edward, Thomas, EUeanor, and Dorothy, A° 1618.

-- Smyth, John, (1567-1640), "Lives of the Berkeleys, Vol. II" 

 

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Grandpa William did the Visitation, though he called himself Northwood and he didn't bother with the sons of the younger sons

https://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun00inchit#page/118/

 

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Pursuing the William Norwood baptized in Kent.  There is a fairly famous mathematician/surveyor Richard Norwood from Kent who patented lands in Virginia in 1623.  There is only reference to one son, Matthew, nothing about any relative named Thomas, some suggestion that his father may have been named Edward.  But it's interesting because the fourth note in his Family Search profile suggests that our Virginia William Norwood may not have had need of an immigration record because he came via Bermuda.

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Thanks again, RJ.  That visitation (essentially a census done only for nobility) with William listed as number 4 son of Richard adds some further strength to the England roots of Henry's nephew.

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Yes it does, showing that William the immigrant had a presumed brother Edward, explaining why he named one of his sons Edward.  By the way, from William's will it appears that his eldest son was George (who got the family homestead), supporting the supposition that George's god-father was also his grandfather.

Answer 3

I've done an edit, clean-up, and reorganization of William Norwood's profile. Please take a look and offer any suggestions or point out any problems.

I suggest that there are five arguments in favor of William Norwood as son of the landed gentleman of Gloucestershire, Robert Norwood. 

1. There was a William in Robert's household who was within a few years of the same age as the Immigrant William. 
2. William bought land almost as soon as he arrived in Virginia Colony.  He was no indentured worker. 
3. Four of Robert's immediate relatives came to the same settlement around the same time, two of which are Richardson-recognized and Magna Carta project-badged Gateway ancestors. 
4. Close proximity of the holdings of William to those of one of his relatives, first cousin Henry.
5. There is no documentation of any kind that could be used to dispute the connection

On the other hand, the argument for the 'prosecution' is that the case for a connection between William Norwood the immigrant and Robert Norwood of Leckhampton, Gloucestershire has not been made 'beyond reasonable doubt.  There is simply a lack of sufficient documentation.  William left no known written acknowledgement of his origins in England.  If he wrote or received letters from 'home' they are lost.  If he had financial or legal interactions with the four 'cousin's' in Jamestown, record of them have not been uncovered.

What is the right way to categorize William?  Would an organization like D.A.R. or the Mayflower Society accept the secondary source and circumstantial evidence?   In the case of the Magna Carta project, should he be categorized as a rejected Gateway Ancestor, a Questionable Gateway Ancestor, a Prospective Gateway Ancestor, or perhaps the first ancestor that this project recognizes that is not listed by Richardson?

Answer 4

With a caveat, I have spent relatively little time researching this family...

So, just looking around this family, I am not convinced with what has been presented so far, I would break this line as unproven and unlikely.  We have no wills, no baptisms, and no records of any kind which actually give us any clue as to the origins or parents of William Norwood.

It might be reasonable to think he could be related to Henry Norwood, but this is based solely on proximity and his last name.  I can give you a 100 similar name-is-the-same and the dates-are-close arguments which all have turned out to be wrong.

I say unlikely just based on a cursory look at the chronology.  Richard Norwood and Elizabeth Steward had 9 children born by 1618 with William being the 4th son and a minimum of 3 brothers born after him.  This puts his birth date as closer to 1610 or before.  William has children being born as late as 1685 (according to the profile).  Even if his last child was born in the 1670s, He is clearly of the wrong generation to make him a presumed son Richard Norwood.

Finally, according to this article by Roland Baker.  DNA has conclusively shown that William Norwood of Virginia is unrelated to the Norwoods of Leckhampton, Gloucestershire.  They are of a different haplotype and separated in time by more than 1000 years. (Roland's interpretation - I haven't actually looked at the DNA data, but it looks solid).
https://www.geni.com/discussions/151879?by_or_about=6000000003615683134

This William Norwood needs to be disconnected from his parents.

Comments

Joe what I took from reading the DNA blog is that Francis Norwood, said to be a son of Richard and brother of William is not related to William, or to Richard, who was proposed as his father.  The writer goes on to say that DNA evidence indicates 5 different Norwood lines and although members of each of those 5 lines all tested R1b1a2, the marker analysis indicated 5 separate lines.  What the writer went on to say is not whether William Norwood is or isn't descended from the Leckhampton Norwoods but that William and Francis were conclusively not brothers.  After giving us the details of the 5 Norwood lines the writer had this to say about the Leckhampton connection and William;

"While the five lineages are all in R1b1a2 these families separated well over 1,000 years ago. They are not descended from the same family in Leckhampton.

What I conclude from this is Captain William Norwood who went to Surry, Virginia "may be of this family" but his brother Francis is not the same Francis who came to New England."  

My interpretation of his statement, "They are not descended from the same family in Leckhampton." does not preclude one of the 5 from being descended from the Leckhampton line, it's just not all 5.  His statement that William, "may be of this family" seems to support this interpretation.

As we know, Douglas Richardson indicates that Richard Norwood and spouse Elizabeth Steward had 7 sons, one of them being William.  Richardson then goes on to say that William b "say" 1610 (obviously a guess) ... "may possibly be Mr William Norwood, the New World immigrant [of] Surry" ... He then mentions that the particulars in regards to William that may be found in the work of Boddie.  Of course, we know that work may be of questionable reliabilty but let's not totally discount the Richardson statement.  

The children's dates of birth would present a problem if we conclude they are accurate, however even the marriage date of 1660 is a guess that conflicts with the statement found in the biography that indicates, "He (the immigrant) first appears in Virginia in Isle of Wight County in 1648, where he soon married Lydia."  Soon, would not be 1660.  the children's birth dates range from 1651 to 1685.  None of these dates are verified or even have sources.  Edwards 1651 date of birth does not agree with a 1660 date of marriage.  Clearly, the are date problems with William Norwood's profile so I think more research is in order before using any dates as evidence of the possibility or impossibility of the parent-child relationship of William to Richard.

These are just points of view on my part.  I have no idea whether William is the child of Richard or not.  But, Richardson seems to at least entertain the idea that he may be, and I also think the writer of the YDNA blog was saying, that William "may be of this family"  

What do I think myself ?  I think we do not have enough evidence as yet to make a conclusion one way or another.  And if Douglas Richardson indicates that William Norwood of Surry, may be the son of Richard Norwood, how can an armchair genealogist like myself come to a conclusion that is more certain ?  All I can say is that iit is my opinion the current evidence does not seem to rule out the possibility that William Norwood is the son of Richard Norwood.  

 

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Regardless of how you interpret the DNA data, we are still left with absolutely zero evidence that William Norwood the immigrant to Virginia is the same person as William son of Richard Norwood.  Again, we have no wills, no baptisms, and no records of any kind to connect them.  This connection apparently falls on the articles of Boddie, who provides no evidence at all.

There is no known connection to Henry Norwood, and the circumstantial evidence is weak to non-existent.  To answer the points of Peter:

1. "There was a William in Robert's household who was within a few years of the same age as the Immigrant William. "  Actually they appear to be of a completely different generation.
2. "William bought land almost as soon as he arrived in Virginia Colony.  He was no indentured worker. "  You don't know when he arrived in Virginia.  You just know the first record of him is buying land.  He could have been a servant for a few years before being released from his bond and buying land.
3. "Four of Robert's immediate relatives came to the same settlement around the same time, two of which are Richardson-recognized and Magna Carta project-badged Gateway ancestors." Circular reasoning.  You can't attach him to a known family and then say "see his relatives came over with him."
4. "Close proximity of the holdings of William to those of one of his relatives, first cousin Henry."  Meaningless.  Henry didn't even live in Virginia and spent very little time there.  Two men with the same surname are not necessarily relatives.
5. "There is no documentation of any kind that could be used to dispute the connection."  This is backwards.  It is for you to find documentation to prove a descent, not for me to find documentation to disprove it.  Any documents which does exist would suggest he was born too late to the same man.  This sentence should read. " there is no documentation of that could be used to make the connection."

Richardson refers to Boddie, so we can assume he was aware of the articles but hadn't evaluated the line for himself as he did not included William Norwood as a gateway ancestor.  If anything, you can point to Anderson as a reason to break the line.

I agree the dates are inaccurate on wikitree, but they all still indicate a man of the wrong generation.  Just because the dates are incorrect doesn't mean we should keep this unproven line in wikitree.  If the dates are wrong, then someone needs to fix them from primary sources and we can discuss their meaning.

Finally, a review of The deNorthwode, Norwood Family of Early England and Early Southeast United States, by Eleanor McSwain (1992) in The American Genealogist, Vol. 70, No. 2 (April 1995):124-125 was written by Marsha Hoffman Rising FASG.  Rising rejected the identification of William as a son Richard as printed in the book.  She noted that there was no supporting evidence, noted the incongruity of dates, and also said "one expect the cousin of a colony clerk, treasurer and Governor William Berkeley to have acquired more than 200 acres upon his arrival. And one would expect a close relative of the governor to have held some type of political office during his lifetime."

This line needs to broken at the immigrant like many others in wikitree.

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"Regardless of how you interpret the DNA data, we are still left with absolutely zero evidence that William Norwood the immigrant to Virginia is the same person as William son of Richard Norwood."

I agree with your statement Joe. I have to admit that the bottom line is we do not have evidence to say that the two Williams are the same person.  You have made a convincing argument for removing the current parents.  Even Richardson wasn't convinced that William the Immigrant was Richard Norwoods son.