Could a pre-1500 person please help me with a query over Caryll-9?

Question

I found this copy of the will of Sir John Cooke which says that John Caryll (Caryll 9) was MARRIED to Griselda Belknap, she wasn't his mother as the profile says. The profile doesn't cite any sources for John Caryll being married to a 'Margaret Ellenbrigge' either. I don't know where the manager of the profile got this information, but it contradicts the genealogy described in the introduction of the document (the 2nd paragraph). Maybe what's in this document is wrong? Would like to know either way! Thanks.

http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-18_ff_256-7.pdf

edit: added Caryll-9 link & tags

Comments

Did you mean to say John Caryll instead of Cooke? I cannot figure out the Cooke/Caryll connection. I found him as husband of Griselde (d 1498) in Richardson's Magna Carta Ancestry... search Caryll at https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8JcbV309c5UC&source=gbs_navlinks_s

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ah. nevermind on my Cooke/Caryll question. Looks like Elizabeth Belknap was Philip Cooke's wife (John Cooke's mother) & Griselde Belknap was John Caryll's wife. If no one else fixes this family before I'm back online Wednesday night, I'll give it a go.

Answer 1

John Caryll b 1439 death date unknown married to Griselde  (Caryll-10)

John  Caryll born  died 1523 married to Margaret Elyngbrigge (Caryll-9)

John Caryll born 1502 married to Elizabeth Palmer (Caryll-8)

 

I think that John Caryl  died 1523 was married to 3 women

Griselde Belknap

Margaret Elynbrigge

Jane (__?)

and it would  appear that Caryll-10 and Caryll-9 represent the same person  and Caryll-8 is John Caryll, MP

Evidence:

1) memorial to Griselda in St, Mary the Virgin, Clapham, West Sussex 

 

"Hic jacet bona et virtuosa Griselda, nup. ux. Joh'is Cargyll, una filiar' Henr' Belknap, armigeri, consanguinii et unius heredu' Rad'i Boteler, militis, d'i de Sudeley, que obiit XI die Julii aº d'ni MCCCClXXXXViii, cujus anime propitietur Deus. Amen" 

Here lies good and virtuous Griselda, late wife of John Caryll, one of the daughters of Henry Belknap esquire, blood relation and one of the heirs of Ralph Boteler, Knight, Lord of Sudeley, who died on July 11th, 1498, on whose soul may God have mercy, amen  (trans from Latin, photo http://www.focpc.org/assets/brasses-of-clapham-2.pdf 

 

2)http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/caryll-%28carrell%29-john-1505-66 

The MP John Caryl b c.1505 "was the son of John Caryl and his 2nd w. Margaret, da. of Thomas Elinbridge of Merstham"

 

​3) The will of John Caryll ​  The National Archives PROB 11/21/166 Will of John Caryll, King's Sergeant at the Law Date: 25 June 1523

[link to ancestry.co.uk image of will subscription needed]

written May 15th? 12th, 15 Henry V111  (1523)

I haven't transcribed it in full, just picked out bits.

mentions:

a) Now wife Jane

b)Gryseld and Margaret my late wyfes 

c)Margaret Elynbrige my late wife

d) children by late wyfe  Margaret, John and Edward

e) 'I have issue by my good wife that now is  Richard, Robert, George, Thomas '

f) daughters Griseld and Dorothie also daughters of Jane ( I bequeath to the marriage of my daughter Griseld and to my daughter Dorothie yf they will be honestly ruled in marriage by my wyfe their moder)

NB spellings are not transcribed accurately, I've typed directly into the box and autospell keeps changing the spellings

Comments

Found name of third wife,  Jane daughter of Robert Rede

Although in his will he asked to be buried next to Margaret in the church at Warnham, he was actually buried in St Dunstans, Fleet Street

 E. W. Ives

The Common Lawyers of Pre-Reformation England: Thomas Kebell: A Case Study

google books

If others agree, propose initiating merge between Caryll 10 and 9

Birthdate unknown, death date May 1523

 

 

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Thank you so much for posting all that :-) So, it looks like John Caryll the younger (my ancestor) wasn't the son of Griselda Belknap, but his father's 2nd wife Margaret Ellinbridge. That's a shame, as Griselda has some interesting ancestors. Thanks for answering my question :-)

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nice work Helen!

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I think I've got them set now. Because of the 1439/1473 birth years for Caryll-10 & Caryll-9, I didn't propose a merge, but I detached Griselde from Caryll-10 & switched her from being mother of Caryll-9 to being his 1st wife.

Let me know of any corrections/additions needed.

Thanks again for your research Helen!

Cheers, Liz

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:[http://www.focpc.org/assets/brasses-of-clapham-2.pdf Translated: Here lies good and virtuous Griselda, late wife of John Caryll, one of the daughters of Henry Belknap esquire, blood relation and one of the heirs of Ralph Boteler, Knight, Lord of Sudeley, who died on July 11th, 1498, on whose soul may God have mercy, amen. Henry Belknap, heir to his brother William (co-heir to Sir Ralph Boteler) died, aged 50, in 1488. Griselda had four sisters, Ann, Elizabeth, Mary and Alice, the last of whom married Sir William Shelley, the judge. (See monument 6 below.) Pg 5] https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Belnap-5 and Belknap-279 are in a merge

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[https://books.google.com/books?id=dqVbarc4qt8C&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=John+caryll+and+Griselde+Belknap&source=bl&ots=Gis15Px_8z&sig=cU4eaRJCQcW6rlX6Cf2nPfWyF5Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQgPWFlY7bAhXO-lQKHVacC90Q6AEIPzAG#v=onepage&q=John%20caryll%20and%20Griselde%20Belknap&f=false A Royal Descent: With Other Pedigrees and Memorials pgs 124, 78, 129] BELKNAP. The brass in memory of Griselda Belknap, first wife of John Caryll (page 78, note) is not noticed by Mr. Herbert Haines in his “Manual of Monumental Brasses,” probably because it was for years kept in the Clapham church chest (as stated by Mr. Cartwright in his “History of the Western Division of Sussex,” vol. ii., part ii., page 85). The Rev. Mr. Barwell, Rector of Clapham, 6 February, 1875, informed the Compiler that this brass, with others formerly kept loose in the same chest, “have since been mounted, and are on the south wall of the Chancel;” he added that the inscription to Griselda has been correctly transcribed in the xxiii. vol. of the “Sussex Archaeological Society.” William Berry, in his “County Genealogies of Sussex,” enters John Caryll as son, instead of husband, of a Belknap; and gives him only two wives, viz., Margaret Ellynbrigge, and Jane Rede; but John Caryll himself in his will orders prayers for the souls of “Griseld and Margaret, my late wives,” in the lifetime of his third wife Jane, née Rede. He mentions also for prayers the souls of his father and mother, and he alludes to his father's will (which the Compiler has failed to find), and to his “mother” (i.e., mother-in-law) Belknap. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Belknap-279

Answer 2

John Carell, or Caryll, serjeant-at-law, eldest son and heir of John Caryll, of Warnham, Sussex, by Griselda, daughter of Henry Belknap, cousin and heir to Sir Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudley, died July 11, 1488. John Caryll, the son, was a member of the Inner Temple. He was made serjeant-at-law in 1505, and king's serjeant in 1514. He was a Bencher of the Inner Temple in 1508 (' Inner Temple Becords,' ed. F. A. Inderwick (1896), i. 12). He married (1) Margaret, daughter of — Ellenbrigge, or Dalynbridge; (2) Jane, daughter and co-heir of Sir Robert Read, Chief Justice of the Common Pleas. Caryll died in 1523, and by his will desired to be buried by the side of his first wife in Warnham Church. By his first wife he left a son, Thomas, who inherited Warnham; by his second a son, John, who became a member of the Inner Temple on July 9, 1522 (ib. 70; D. G. C. Elwes and C. J. Robinson, 'Castles At. of Western Sussex' [1879], p. 253). His will was proved in 1523 as of Warnham, Sussex, Caryll - [https://books.google.com/books?id=6EyJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=john+caryll+and+Griselda+belnap&source=bl&ots=9VH_IXbDvb&sig=3kBNIe-whb87ZWVvH_HTDYyIvkM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdwK_wh47bAhVIs1QKHeuRA6sQ6AEITzAJ#v=onepage&q=john%20caryll%20and%20Griselda%20belnap&f=false The Publications of the Selden Society, Volume 16 Pg 80 + 312] https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Caryl-5 is now in a merge