Would you confirm this story [the only evidence is DNA]?

Question

The following depicts the man on the left about his twenties. The man on the right is in his forties.

The man on right is my grandfather that for years I have been unable to trace where he came from UNTIL today. My grandfather imigrated to Canada about 1900's. How,  we do not know. Have looked at many ship manifests. His name is Robert Kelvin Nash according to siblings and what is written on gravestone. The man on left is Thomas Robert Nash from UK. That picture was given to me from the family of John Stephen Nash who is the brother of Thomas Robert Nash. The marriage certificate of Robert Kelvin Nash states his father Walter Ernest Nash and mother as Mary Ann Scanlan from Sussex, England.  But I could find no record in UK of his parents. The parents of Thomas Robert Nash are Walter Henry Nash and mother is Mary Ann Scanlon. Noitce the spelling in SCANLON/SCANLAN. I was in commuciation with great granddaughter of Walter Henry Nash from New Zealand. I believed that Walter Henry was my ancestor and Robert Kelvin had made a mistake. When I received the following picture that was part of John Stephen Nash family history, I was positive we were on the right track. So we figured the only way to settle this issue would be by DNA given by New Zealand relative..  And BEHOLD...!!! its a match in Ancestry and its a match in GEDmatch. We are 4th cousins. What feeling to know about my ancestors. So Thomas Robert Nash and Robert Kelvin Nash are the same person in the photo. Many questions need to be answered. Why did he change his name? What should we record in Wiki tree as his 1st name. We were thinking Thomas Robert Kelvin. Many profiles will have to be adjusted. But there is so much more to the story which only be of interest to family members.

So we keep on trucking. Wikitree has really helped finding our roots.

Any comments would be apprecaited.. So if you were me, would you confirm the relationship because the only evidence is DNA?

Comments

Very interesting, John!

I added "[the only evidence is DNA]" to the subject line and the DNA tag to hopefully grab the attention of some WikiTreers who might be able to help with the genetic genealogy.

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I may have missed something in your questions, but why do you think Robert Kelvin Nash and Thomas Robert Nash are the same person rather than brothers?

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1. The photo provided has been proved by computer software that there is a very strong percentage they are the same person.

2. There are no records found of a child named Robert Kelvin by parents Walter and Mary Ann in UK (birth, marriage, census, war, ship manifests, probate..etc absolutely nothing.

3. The birth year are the same.

4. The was a child named Robert Kennrick and we thought it was him but it was proven that Robert Kennrick's documents show otherwise. Definitely was not our Robert Kelvin. That person made us go on a wild goose chase. We really had to dig in and get the correct information.

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Is the great granddaughter of Walter Henry Nash from New Zealand in WikiTree?  If so, does the privacy level of her and her ancestors allow others to view her ancestry? What is her GEDmatch ID? 

Thanks and sincerely, Peter

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John, I edited your original post to include a link to the profile.  If there's a different profile you prefer to link, you can go in and change it.

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I am working this with the lady from New Zealand Hessey-23. She managed to get her sister to send DNA Hessey-29. What do you mean by GEDmatch ID? Do you mean the kit number from ancestry or the login info.

My GEDmatch ID is A710955 and Hessey-29 appears as the 9th entry on a list of 2275 possible matches.

I and Hessey-29 uploaded our DNA results to GEDmatch.

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The GEDmatch ID for Hessey-29 is A896973

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DNA doesn't lie, If 2 share more than 15cM's in a single strand, they are related.... you just don't know the degree.

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In this case

The autosomal states

Total cM 86.6

Largest cM 19.7

Answer 1

London England,Church of England,Marriages & Banns 1754-1921,

Walter Nash Married Mary Ann Scanlon Aug,28 1876,St Mary Parish,

Borough of Lambeth,his Father John Nash,Her father ,Michael Scanlon.

He was 21,she was 21.

Comments

I do not understand your comment. It does not prove that Robert Kelvin was a child of Walter and Mary until we got the DNA results.

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John, you said, "But I could find no record in UK of his parents."  Wayne provided you with a record that named Walter's father and Mary Ann's mother.  It doesn't prove anything, as you said.  But he was trying to help you by providing information.

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I'm sorry maybe I misunderstood, But I was trying to say that the information provided by Wayne, I already had and much more. My point was a NOW confirmed DNA cousin had all the tidbits of Nash. I connected all the dots but when she saw the profiles I connected, she stated it was wrong because according to her family records she had Walter Henry and Mar Scanlon and I had Walter Ernest and Mary Scanlan. (notice the spelling of Scanlan). Therefore we disconnected all the profiles and continued the search for my grandfather but still no records anywhere. It was time to get some DNA results which proved to resolve the mystery. So all the information is confirmed by DNA results.

Answer 2

The records do not support ,Thomas Nash being from Sussex England.

Thomas Robert Nash born 1st Quarter, 1885,Lambeth,London england .

London,England Births and Baptisms,1813-1906.

Thomas Robert Nash,Baptised May 20 1885, Father Walter Henry Nash,

Mother Mary Ann Nash, Borough of Lambeth,London England.1891 Census

has Walter and Mary with 7 children all from Lambeth,London England

Comments

Before DNA results..I had only the marriage certificate to prove he was from Sussex, England. After DNA proved his father Walter Henry Nash died in Sussex. We believe that is where that information came from. All the the information about Lambeth, London has been recorded in the profiles. Therefore I do not understand your comment that records do not support.

Answer 3

What a great story and the photo's certainly do seem to tell the tale.

I am curious about the DNA - you have one other test that your are using to confirm your connection? "DNA given by New Zealand relative..  And BEHOLD...!!! its a match in Ancestry and its a match in GEDmatch. We are 4th cousins."

In DNA like any other science, it's not just a matter of proving something once. What would provide the "proof" would be a triangulated match. So it would be you, your new cousins from New Zealand and another person.

This would be a triangulated confirmation. To learn more about this look at WikiTree's DNA confirmation information.

Congratulations! Hope you find the third leg in the confirmation soon!

Mags

Answer 4

I would not confirm if it is a match between only two 4th cousins.  As Mags says, at that distance you need to use triangulation.  We need to also see each tester's GEDmatch ID.  If a tester needs to be private then enter their first name as Anonymous in GEDmatch and WikiTree.

Added 12/16/2016: The above was based on the belief that they were 4th cousins.  If they are 2nd cousins then triangulation is not necessary.

Sincerely,

Comments

I am not pleased this is being discussed in a public forum...but now it is we might as well use your helpful knowledge.

To have triangulation I would appreciate your expertise in comparing these 3 GEDmatch's.

JohnArthurNash A710955

RHessey A896973

CTNash A868890 

If indeed JNash & RHessey are related, then they are 2nd cousins, not 4th.

 

 

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With 2nd cousins you don't need to triangulate. You can confirm so long as the total amount of their shared autosomal DNA is within the range of what 2nd cousins normally share.  See http://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA_statistics#Distribution_of_genealogical_relationships_for_given_amounts_of_shared_DNA

Your shared total is in that range.

Privacy level of profiles of DNA testers and their ancestors need to be "Private with Public Biography and Public Tree"  GEDmatch ID of each auDNA tester needs to be on their DNA Tests page.

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Thanks for providing the GEDmatch kit no. As others have stated, the 86.1 cM shared between John Arthur Nash and Rachel Hessey are enough to confirm their relationship. Assuming no endogamy has happened in the recent generations, this would indeed support the 2nd cousin relationship that is indicated.

I've also looked at the third kit and John Arthur Nash and ctnash aren't related within the genealogical timeframe. Not sure if that makes sense in your research but why was this person then included in this case (for triangulation)?

ctnash and Rachel Hessey do seem to have a distant relationship as indicated by 1 shared segment of 11.1 cM and 1590 SNP's

Hope this helps!

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Mary stated to me that CTnash appeared as a match 5th-8th cousin on Rachel's profile in Ancestry. I checked my ancestry and have no match. I checked GEDmatch. My profile and CTnash but no match found. I checked Rachels GEDmatch and no match on CTnash. But he is related on ancestry??!!, according to Mary. I suspect maybe he is related via her father than the mother who is from a line of NASH. Just a coinincidence his name happens to be NASH.

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Thank you for your help.

All 3 people are descendants of John Ostler Nash 1818-1880 (Nash-4145).

The g/grandfather of John & Rachel is Walter Henry Nash (Nash-4144).

CTNash is a grandson or g/grandson of Walter Henry's brother. He does not have a profile on Wiki.

Our amateur reading of the DNA does have a small link between R & CT

chrome 1 = 11.1cm  (I am working from memory here, could be wrong).

 

Would it be helpful if I can find CT's correct parent?  Or is it unnecessary?  I am curious as to why he doesn't have a better match.

Your guidance and help is much appreciated.

 

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Hi Mary, you have an excellent memory, chr 1 is correct. Now the single segment of 11.1 cM is pointing to a rather distant common ancestor. If all three of you are basically connected through the same one (and not you and John being connected through an earlier Most Recent Common Ancestor = MRCA), then I doubt a bit that ctnash is indeed coming down from Nash-4145.

It might be possible but I checked down to 1 cM for John and him and can't find a single even slightly so small matching segment between the two. That would indicate a NPE (non paternal event) along the line of ctnash.

But then again DNA is random, it might be that the ancestral segments of Nash-4145 were simply lost (maybe just one generation before ctnash). Checking more cousins would give clarity. Through triangulation you will identify more DNA cousins which belong to the same segments that you and John match right now. If all of those show no match with ctnash at all then it's more likely that a NPE happened.

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The profile is currently a rough marriage of one profile with birth name and the other profile using the alias.  I will work on marrying them together smoothly  and list other clues which led to final decision to test DNA.

Below is a proposed entry to describe the DNA results in a simple way.  I would be very grateful if you could confirm or alter this to ensure it is correct.

"Autosomnal Comparison:

22 Chromosomes (Chr) from each potential 2nd cousin were tested.

John Nash (Nash-3461) & Rachel Hessey (Hessey-29)

There are 5 matching segments between Nash-3461 and Hessey-29.

Chr 5 = 19.3 cM (Centimorgans)

Chr 12 = 9.7cM

Chr 17 = 19.1cM and 19.7cM

Chr 18 = 12.0cM

A cM strand higher than 15cM is a good match.

These 2 people are within the range where they can be reasonably confidently be proven as 2nd cousins."

I am seeking your advice and suggestions.

We will also need to know how we can have both names in the profile heading.  I cannot see any provision for this.  Should I start another G2G question for this?

Many thanks

Mary

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Please see https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/DNA_Confirmation

Please share what information you need that is not on that page or the pages of the links there.

Thank you.

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Thank you Peter,

Profile has now been updated so situation is more clear.

Working my way through the link  given  above, it seems I need to name the father as DNA confirmed, with the son and the alias son?

Is it possible for someone who knows what they are doing to email me and walk me through.  I am terrified that I will make a huge mess and complicate things further.

Thanking you in advance,

Mary