Prefix definition

Question

I am preparing new errors for Prefix field. I analysed prefix field and it is usually one of 100 texts. Maybe we could set the standard of what exactly is in prefix field.

Here are all prefixes, that occurs over 5 times.

http://www.softdata.si/osebe_staro/ales/Wikitree/Prefix5.htm

And here are all prefixes.

http://www.softdata.si/osebe_staro/ales/Wikitree/Prefix.htm

I did some review and we could classify prefix in a few groups listed below and in reports with number of occurrences. It is not completely in line with help but, that is the state of prefix field. And all the rest should be an error. I could also add another error, if any of these prefixes appear in any other name, since they should be in prefix. I want your opinion of these error. 

Let me describe a bit my idea, how this would work.

We have 230000 prefixes in database. We already whitelisted or blacklisted 220000. And excluding numbers there are cca 8000 questionable prefixes. Number still will reduce a bit, as we extend the list.

• We already  have one error for number in prefix
• We also have one error for separators in prefix
• I will add one error for blacklisted prefixes. cca 800 errors
• I will probably add one error for prefixes, that should be in suffix. cca 800 errors
• I will add another error for all other prefixes, that are not whitelisted. few thousand errors. This error will have a possibility to mark it as false error. I will occasionally review false errors and add frequent words to white list.

WhiteList

Here is latest list of prefixes, that are ok.

http://www.softdata.si/osebe_staro/ales/Wikitree/PrefixWhiteList.htm

Definition of Whitelist and BlackList will be defined on wikitree page, so anyone will be able to whitelist another word. Although I would prefer some level of agreement in G2G, before adding new items to whitelist. This page is already being used, and will be extended as we add specific errors. http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Database_Errors_Definition I will add the prefix list on the page as we conclude this discusson.

I would also ask Chris to include or reference definition page in help for the prefix.

I also need some help from you. 

1. Are group names ok. Should some group be split or added a new group.
2. Are items in correct groups. 
3. What variations are used in non english languages. See the links to report.
4. Which form should be used where there are different spellings/abbr. For instance Sargeant 17,  Sargent 21,  Sergeant 162,  Sgt 881 and a few more spellings of this rank that I didn't classify jet.

This is the description from help page:

Prefix

This is for a name prefix or title² such as Mrs, Sir, Dr, Gov, Sgt, etc.

If a person has multiple prefixes or titles use the highest, last or preferred one, e.g. Capt over Lt..

The prefix is limited to 10 characters.

 

2. If a title cannot be properly paired with the Proper First Name at birth it should not be used in the Prefix field. Instead, it should be part of the Preferred First Name or Nicknames. For example, King is not an appropriate Prefix for George VI because his Proper First Name at birth was Albert and he cannot be called King Albert. See Name Fields for European Aristocrats.

Answer 1

Generation is a suffix only.

Cpl. is abbrev. for Corporal.  Sar... is wrong sp. of Sergeant.  Adm. is abbrev. for Admiral.  Mayor is a politcal title not military.

Applies to my circle of knowledge (American/English) not the whole world.

Comments

My thoughts exactly for Generation.

I think abbrev. are allowed in prefix, so Cpl. and Corporal are both ok.

Major was military title in Yugoslvian army. So Mayor is political in US.

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Thank you Aleš Trtnik    for the List, good reading of the prefix List- -

1st) - Spell the word/title in Full to 10 - then abbreviate -

2nd) - Military  - army ) no ranks/rates less than Captain -

                        - navy ) no ranks/rates less than Commander -

see addressing titles on envelopes - ( in Wikipedia® ) -  https://www.debretts.com/expertise/forms-of-address/professions/the-armed-forces/  and I think the same goes for the Religions.( in certain time frames/periods )

 - this will knock a few out of the system ( in the Commonwealth )

cheers - john.a

Answer 2

An immediate technical problem is that some combinations are valid eg Gen Sir, Prof Sir, Rev Prof, Rev Dr.

But also, some single honorifics are two words - Rt Hon, Lt Col, 2nd Lt.  Some of these can be hyphenated, but some can't.

Comments

I noticed that, so i intend to allow combinations of some or all defined prefixes. I will decide later.

I ignored hyphen for now. Here is report for use of hyphen in prefix field.

http://www.softdata.si/osebe_staro/ales/Wikitree/PrefixHyp.htm

So i guess Lt.-Col., Maj.-Gen., Vice-Adm. and a few more must be hyphened. Or is it optional?

 

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No hyphens in UK forces abbreviations. The wiki page looks OK for UK and US officer ranks and seems no hyphen there either.  Difference is in use of capitals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_Kingdom_and_United_States_military_ranks

 (elsewhere?)

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I don't think that hyphens are used in the United States military forces, either. Titles like Maj. Gen., Lt. Cdr., and Lt. Col. do not include hyphens.

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I remove all hyphens in prefix field before processing. If it is not the case, I can remove hyphen from allowed separators and all 560 instances will go to 711 error. 

Can you have a quick view of this page and make sure that none of the prefix requires hyphen. http://www.softdata.si/osebe_staro/ales/Wikitree/PrefixHyp.htm

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I think the hyphen might be needed in Dipl.-Ing., but that is not an English term (I recognize it as a Spanish term), so I'm not sure.

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We use Dipl.ing.  in Slovenia and it is without hyphen.

Answer 3

In (English/English)

Dame would be a Title - Not Mr, Mrs - The female equivalent of Sir

LADY would also be a Title  (generally the title given to the wife of a Sir)

 

Comments

I wasn't sure about those two. Thanks.

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There was a past discussion here in which it was said that "Mr" was once a title of respect -- not every man could be called "Mr." (And similarly, not every married woman was a "Mrs.")

Answer 4

Ales, here are Prefixes from findagrave.com : 

Profession:

Dr , Judge .

Religous:

Deacon , Elder , Rabbi , Rev , RevFr , Br , Sr 

Military:

1LT , 1SGT , 2LT , A1C , AB , ADM , AMN , BG , CCM , CDR , CMSAF , CMSGT , COL , CPL , CPO , CPT , CSM , CWO , ENS , GEN , GYSGT , LCDR , LCPL , LT , LTC , LTJG , MAJ , MCPO , MCPON , MG , MGYSGT , MSGT , PFC , PO , PVT , RADM , RDML , SA , SCPO , SFC , SGM , SGT , SGTMAJMC , SMA , SMSGT , SN , SPC , SR , SRA , SSGT , TSGT , VADM , WO. 

Lists of Prefixes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_honorifics , https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_occupation_code#Army , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Navy_enlisted_warfare_designations , http://mediawiki.middlebury.edu/wiki/LIS/Name_Standards , https://www.fairpoint.com/document/Title%20of%20Degrees%20-%20Feb%202009_tcm12-6468.pdf 

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vickery-356  OD = Doctor of Optometry,

I am: FA SU John P Vickery IV LCDC, CADAC, SASSII, PMAB

Comments

I already got some of them and a few are not used at all or differently. I think we should define our own list.

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Just earlier today I added Military Ranks to WACS as Prefixes lol

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:US_Women%27s_Army_Corps

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>> I am: FA SU John P Vickery IV LCDC, CADAC, SASSII, PMAB

As I read this it tells me, that you are John. :-)

Use Bio for the rest.

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Once in a great while my name is spelled:

M O O N :)

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I have several ancestors whose names were prefixed with "Deacon," which is often abbreviated "Dea." I'd like "Dea." to be an acceptable abbreviation.

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Sure i will add it. I just didn't know what it means. Google didn't help much, since it is very common word.

Answer 5

The use of the correct form of  abbreviation as in your sergeant example is going to be problematic  

  For example,  there are profiles with the prefix:  F Lt, F/Lt, Flgt Lt,  Flight Lt, Flt Lieut, Flt Lt,  Ft Lt.  The correct one is  Flt Lt  the rank of   Flight Lieutenant (Royal Air Force and  Royal Australian Air force)  .

Is  Lieut (used 460 times) Correct in some times and places, possibly but  at present,  in the British Forces the abbreviation is Lt. In the US, I believe it is LT

(pragmatically the incorrect ones still carry meaning)

Other fields are even more difficult to work out the correct usage. What about an Archdeacon ? I really wasn't sure what to put in the suffix box the other day.  Is he, The Ven, Ven, Ven Archd, Venerable, or just Archdeacon  (these all appear on the list ) .The  C of E says that Venerable is correct in a formal listing  and is what I used but  Venerable  carries an entirely different meaning in the RC church.

Answer 6

http://www.wikitree.com/g2g/62314/should-rules-recommend-putting-prefix-preferred-preferred from Chris Whitten Jan 28 2014.

Comments

This post is about use of prefix and it will benefit by cleaning prefix of garbage. Also clearing other fields of prefixes will be good.

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I agree

Answer 7

Alderman - could be Ålderman and then its the eldest man and had some authority see Elder_(administrative_title)

batsman - should be Båtsman is a soldier working on boat

bonde - should be Bonde and is Farmer

Hemmansäga - should be Hämmansägare and the title for the person how is owning a farm (hemman) is something like a farmer....   Skomakare - Ok swedish for shoemaker Torpare - Ok person renting or owned a smaller farm

Comments

Are those both professions?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alderman 

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But professions shouldn't be in prefix, unless some in some significant cases (Dr, President,...)

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@Aleš Ok the everything are errors plus some also misspelled errors

I think before 1950 you mentioned the occupation or position together with the name like  Åldersman xxxx etc....

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I know that, but prefix is limited to 10 characters, so there are professions, that won't fit. I added some professions as ok, but if there is interest, I can add more.

Answer 8

• Bart Sir is wrong. The prefix is Sir and the suffix is Bt. They should be coupled. 
• Sr is  not a title or, more correctly, rank. It is an abbreviation for Senior.
• KG, KT and KP are suffixes, ranks and should be coupled with Sir.
• Also, KCVO, GCVO, GCMG. KCMG, KBE, GBE, etc
• Kt does get Sir but does not get Kt !
• LADY should be Lady. 
• Reverand does not exist; Reverend does
•  I would add PC, WPC, Hon, Rt Hon, Rt Rev and Very Rev
• MR, MRS, MISS, MS Should not exist at all but if wanted they should be Mr, Mrs, Miss and Ms.

Comments

>> Bart Sir is wrong. The prefix is Sir and the suffix is Bt. They should be coupled. 

So some prefixes must have specific suffix and vice versa? That could be another error to check. We will get back to it, when I check Suffix

>> Sr is  not a title or, more correctly, rank. It is an abbreviation for Senior.

Corrected.

>> KG, KT and KP are suffixes, ranks and should be coupled with Sir.

>> Also, KCVO, GCVO, GCMG. KCMG, KBE, GBE, etc

>> Kt does get Sir but does not get Kt !

What do those abbr. mean. I assume Kt is Knight and others. So Knight shouldn't be in prefix, but should be in suffix.

>> LADY should be Lady. 

I am not checking case for now.

>> MR, MRS, MISS, MS Should not exist at all but if wanted they should be Mr, Mrs, Miss and Ms.

I am not checking case for now. I also don't see the point for these, but if people want to use it, they should. I don't mind

 

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KT is Knight of the Thistle, the Scottish equivalent of Knight of the Garter. Limited in number. KP was Knight of St Patrick but none is now appointed  to that Order since the vote to devolve Ireland from GB, whereupon we became UK ( the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland).  All three should be coupled with Sir. (Eg Sir John Major, KG)
KT is Knight Bachelor and gets no suffix. Just Sir. (Eg Sir Paul McCartney) 

This has much to do with name display rather than errors.

KCVO etc mean Knight Commander of the Victorian Order (appointments made by HM the Queen) and they are all knighthoods. GCMG is Knight Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael & St George (mostly given to Senior Diplomats) etc

Hon is child of a Peer. Rt, Hon is member of the Privy Council, Very Rev is a Dean or Provost , Rt Rev is a Bishop,  Most Rev is an Archbishop. Reverand is a misspelling.

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I will be using Mr, Mrs, and Miss because in the time period and geographic area I am working in (pre-1700 SW England) they were considered to be titles for local gentry.

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Mr. (Mister) applies to any male over a given age; under that age it would be Master -- thus probably shouldn't be used at all as every male listing would possibly have a prefix.

Mrs. should only be used for a married woman when coupled with her husband's name, i.e., Mrs. John Smith; never Mrs. Mary Smith.

Reference: Chicago Manual of Style 14.3.

Someone will probably take me to task on this, but these were our standards in our publishing business for 40+ years.

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You are absolutely correct - for more modern times.  I am talking about the 1600s and 1700s in SW England, where 'Mr' was an honorific for local gentry and 'Mrs' (short for 'Mestres') was the female equivalent.

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I agree regarding Mister and Master..

My grandmother, widowed in World War I, was definitely Mrs Kenneth Arbuthnot.  I think however that she would have referred to a divorced woman as Mrs Mary Smith.

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I know this is a couple years late, but I wonder if we could change the wording in the help page to gently discourage indiscriminate use of Mr/Mrs/Miss?

Answer 9

What is correct prefix Sir Capt or Capt Sir. Is it same for all ranks Sir Lt Col vs Lt Col Sir.

Comments

Captain Sir as in http://www.newslocker.com/en-uk/news/obituaries/wingate-captain-sir-miles-kcvo/

 and the top rank in the UK at the moment, (Chief of Defence staff) Air Chief Marshall Sir Stuart Peach

 

Answer 10

Without belaboring the point, any content is correct in the prefix when it is properly sourced.

However, from reviewing the list of prefixes provided by Aleš, it looks like some profiles are using the prefix field to hold other data. It would be most useful to detect this usage, perhaps by using a blacklist of content that should not appear in the prefix. Likewise, a non-exclusive whitelist could be used to warn about unusual or uncommon prefix content.

Comments

Yes, misuse of prefix and suffix fields is a good candidate for a new "corrections" campaign.

I've encountered a number of profiles that had prefixes in the suffix field (e.g., "John Jones Captain"), or suffixes in the prefix field (e.g., "Jr. John Jones"). I suppose this might be due to failures of some of our national education systems that result in adults who don't know what prefix and suffix mean, or (more likely) bad genealogy software that caused various items to be placed in the wrong field.

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Doug, That is exactly what I am trying to do here. During this discussion, idea crystallized in my head. So I edited the main post, to make it clear. And we can continue from there. For Suffix similar thread will appear in a few days.

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I disagree in that an improper prefix or suffix cannot by definition be properly sourced. Eg Sir Paul McCartney, kt.

Answer 11

As a devoted (American) reader of British detective fiction, I would include: DC (Detective Constable), DS (Detective Sergeant), DI (Detective Inspector), DCI (Detective Chief Inspector), etc.

Comments

Those are probably police ranks. Are you certain DS means Detective Sergeant it is much more of them than others. Could it be anything else. And from those initials I would never guess what they stand for. Something like Det.Cnst. or Det.Ins. is more specific.

DC 0x

DS 100x

DI 2x

DCI 0x

and we have some others.

Det    2
Det Cnstbl    1
Detective    3
 

   

Answer 12

Let me describe a bit my idea, how this would work. 

We have 230000 prefixes in database. We already whitelisted or blacklisted 220000. And excluding numbers there are cca 8000 questionable prefixes. Number still will reduce a bit, as we extend the list.

We already  have one error for number in prefix

We also have one error for separators in prefix

I will add one error for blacklisted prefixes. cca 800 errors

I will probably add one error for prefixes, that should be in suffix. cca 800 errors

I will add another error for all other prefixes, that are not whitelisted. few thousand errors. This error will have a possibility to mark it as false error. I will occasionally review false errors and add frequent words to white list.

Definition of Whitelist and BlackList will be defined on wikitree page, so anyone will be able to whitelist another word. Although I would prefer some level of agreement in G2G, before adding new items to whitelist. This page is already being used, and will be extended as we add specific errors. http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Database_Errors_Definition I will add the prefix list on the page as we conclude this discusson.

I would also ask Chris to include or reference definition page in help for the prefix.

Answer 13

Discussion continues here http://www.wikitree.com/g2g/277621/prefix-names-and-suffix-errors