Looking for help to find my Irish family member that doesn't appear anywhere but his son's marriage in 1846?

Question

I've gone down the rabbit hole and I'm stuck and hoping someone on here can help.  I have lots of details on my relative Patrick Edward Doyle (his ID is below to check out) b March 17 1825 in Naas, Co Kildare Ireland but his parents are absolute ghosts-their names are Edward Doyle and Martha (not even sure of maiden name) Doyle.  Their names are listed on Patrick's marriage cert to Martha Linnehan (Lenehan) on 19 Apr 1849 in Kildare, Ireland and a few other family forms from the U.S. after Patrick arrived but again, only list their names Edward and Martha Doyle.  They didn't come to the U.S. with Patrick. I can't find any baptism record in the Parish Registers for Patrick or Edward (his dad) in Ireland which seems odd.  I did check the 1851 census for Edward Doyle in the Naas/Kildare and surrounding areas with zero success (and 1901 census but I'm assuming they had passed by that time).  I can't find a burial site for Edward or Martha Doyle (searched all the nearby cemeteries).  I went thru Griffiths Valuation and couldn't find anything in their area for a family with an Edward Doyle roughly 50-60yo at that time (that's a guess).  Can anyone help out with this one before I throw in the towel and move on to the next family member? Am I missing any info that I need to check? Thank you in advance!!!

Answer 1

Stephanie, a chara,

First things first, you centainly won't find them on the 1851 census. Almost all were destroyed in 1922; there is a single return surving in all of County Kildare (household of Thomas Carr).

Also keep in mind that Catholic records are patchy at best (especially considering you're looking pre-emancipation). If the records you are looking for don't survive, it wouldn't actually be "odd".

Comments

Do you have any recommendations of other places to look? Thx!!!

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In the Tithe Applotment Books, compiled between 1823 and 1837, there are two Edward Doyle listed in County Kildare. One was living in Brides Well Townland in the parish of Carnalway, which is close to Naas where it seems Patrick was married. This could be him? There are a lot of other Doyle on the same page for Brides Well. 

On the home page for the Tithe Applotment Books, I notice that they refer to tithes payable to the Church of Ireland. Perhaps Feargal would know if Catholics had to pay that too? Somehow I imagine they did and so would have been listed in those records as well?

I also noticed that there was a Patrick Doyle listed as a witness at a marriage in November 1847 on the same marriage page referenced in the source link under Answer #2. It might help to try and see if you can find siblings for Patrick, by searching for other Doyle marriages with Edward Doyle as a father. Sometimes this pays off. 

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THANK YOU! This is helpful. I will check both of these Edward Doyles. I was not at all familiar with this Tithe Applotment Book but I’m so appreciative for the possible lead.

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Tithes were indeed paid by everyone to the Church of Ireland, regardless of religion.

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Just a correction. A constant myth in Irish genealogy is that the census records were  destroyed in the 1922 fire, started by the IRA in the Four Courts. First off, the census records were never kept in that building, or how did the 1901 & 1911 census survive.  There is a letter on file, off top of my head, dated 1918, that replies to a question which confirms the census had gone, destroyed as instructed, again without checking around the 1890's, but some had been destroyed previously. A few extracts were kept & its always worth having a look at those. Census were never meant to be kept. They are for the government departments to review population for infrastructure adjustments.

Once that was done, they were really quite worthless back then.

The magazine History Ireland did a piece on this.

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Robert, a chara,

The 1851 Census was indeed destroyed in the Four Courts Fire [edit: they were stored in the Public Records Office, adjoining the Four Courts]. If I recall correctly the reason we have "census fragments" for this one is because they are the returns that happened to be in the reading room at the time?

Of the other censuses, there were some destroyed once they had "filled their purpose" and there were others pulped for paper during the war. From my recollection those censuses are lost [edit: destroyed, not lost] in their entirety.

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From the National Archives website (here):

"The original census returns for 1861 and 1871 were destroyed shortly after the censuses were taken. Those for 1881 and 1891 were pulped during the First World War, probably because of the paper shortage. The returns for 1821, 1831, 1841 and 1851 were, apart from a few survivals, notably for a few counties for 1821 and 1831, destroyed in 1922 in the fire at the Public Record Office at the beginning of the Civil War."

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Just a correction on this. The 1841 & 51 census were used in 1908 for the first pension register to prove birth date. So were still around then, but once the pension register was completed they were not required. The census were not destroyed in any rolling date order.

After writing the first note it dawned on me i have my great grandparents forms.

Which gives their parents names. I have seen these forms with siblings named too.

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There is a very good video on youtube, from 9 months ago, of Dr Brian Gurrin explaining about the census & the remaining fragments.

There is something missed though. In some locations the 1821-41 census for individual parishes were copied. Certain records were in the keeping of the local Church of Ireland Minister. After the disestablishment of the Church of Ireland 1869, they were instructed to hand in all non church related documents to central government records. It was at this point census & the wills, later to be lost, were handed in. But some Ministers copied the census returns for their parish. These to the best of my knowledge sre not catalogued. The one for Killymard, West Donegal was reproduced in a local history book. This one is quite exceptional. My Mills family are listed both 1821 & 41.

But its the additional notes provided by the Vicar that makes them much better.

Given the notes must have been added after 1869, when the copy was made, you see things like....this was the grandmother of John Love.....who at that time was a young man in his Parish.

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The marriage in Naas in November 1847 to which Patrick Doyle was witness was between Patrick Carroll and Bridget [Holmes?]. A search for a marriage between parties named Carroll and Doyle shows that Michael Doyle married Mary Carrol in Kildare in 1817, which would have been about the right time to be parents of Patrick born c.1825. The Tithe Aplotments and Griffiths Valuation records both have Michael Doyle in Naas. And Patrick and Martha appear to have named their first son Michael. As Paddy points out below, it's possible that the informant for Patrick's death certificate was in error when he gave the names Edward and Martha, it wouldn't be the first time it had happened.

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I've found that witnesses at weddings and baptisms were almost always cousins or siblings, and so it would be reasonable to hypothesise that Patrick Doyle was cousin to Patrick Carroll.

Answer 2

Feargal beat me to saying that most 1851 census returns were lost when the Public Record Office of Ireland was destroyed in 1922.

Civil registration of Catholic marriages did not begin until 1 Jan 1864.

The church marriage register for Naas parish cited twice in Patrick's profile does not identify the parents of bride or groom.

You might like to replace the paywalled indirect ancestry.com links to the church marriage register with a link to the free nli.ie link, such as this generated by the WikiTree Sourcer browser extension:

Patrick Doyle married Martha Linnehan on 19 April 1849 in Naas, Kildare, Ireland.<ref>
'''Marriage''':
"Catholic Parish Registers"<br/>
National Library of Ireland; Naas, Diocese of Kildare and Leighlin, County of Kildare; Microfilm 04208 / 04; Page 23; Aug. 1847 to Nov. 1849<br/>
[https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634525#page/23/mode/1up National Library of Ireland Register] (accessed 30 March 2024)<br/>
Patrick Doyle marriage to Martha Linnehan on 19 Apr 1849 in Naas, Kildare, Ireland.
</ref>

Also bear in mind that Edward may be rendered as Edmund or Edmond or Ned or Ted or other variants.

Comments

Ok thank you! I’ll change that  

Can you recommend other places to continue my search?

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I see that Feargal has already been working on the marriage source and changed the link to FindMyPast, where seeing the image requires login but not a paid subscription.

I note that Patrick's death record and tombstone inscription give different ages at death.  "17 March" was an extremely popular estimated birthday for Irish people who neither remembered nor knew nor cared exactly when they had been born, particularly for Irish men named Patrick, since it is St. Patrick's feast day and one of the few dates celebrated annually.  For similar reasons, "4 July" also crops up extraordinarily often as an estimated birthday in the United States.

I don't see any source showing that Martha's last name at birth was Doyle.  If there is no source, then it should probably be changed to "Unknown".

There is also the possibility that the grief-stricken relative registering Patrick's death misunderstood the question asked and gave Patrick's wife's name when asked for Patrick's mother's name, a surprisingly common error.

The two Marthas have become confused in user-donated family trees at ancestry.com, including what may be your own at
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/193991288/person/142536340756
where the mother's estimated birth year is several years after her son's, citing her daughter-in-law's 1860 census return as a source.

I also recommend copying your DNA data from 23andMe to GEDmatch.com, MyHeritage.com and FamilyTreeDNA.com and adding the relevant details to your WikiTree profile.  Then search your matches on all the DNA websites for those with ancestors named Doyle and see whether any of those ancestors might be a sibling of Patrick.

You could also persuade your father to swab for Y-DNA analysis by FamilyTreeDNA and see if any close male line Doyle relatives show up in his matches.

Note that Carnalway civil parish, where Eric found an Edward Doyle in the Tithes, is covered by Kilcullen Catholic parish at
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0483
There is a gap in the surviving/online baptismal records from 1 Sep 1818 to 25 Apr 1829, which may cover Patrick's birthdate.

Your ancestors appear to have emigrated shortly after their marriage during the Great Hunger of 1845-52, so you might want to check for Doyles in eviction and workhouse records from Naas if such have survived.

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I'd never hear of 17th March being over-used as an estimated birthdate before, interesting! (I was of course aware that they do often be plucked out of thin air).

I usually use the FMP link for parish records, seeing as it's free to access and has a transcription. I was just sorting out the GEDcom clutter, but it was probably presumptuous of me to change it! Stephanie is of course free to change it to the NLI link if she prefers :)

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Men born on 17 March are, or course, more likely to be named Patrick than men born on other dates, but I'm still sceptical of the birthdate!

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I'd say it would be easier assumed with other saint's feast days. Sure, anybody could be called Patrick!

[edit: yes, I did only realise the flippancy of this comment being in reply to a "Paddy" after sending it.]

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I will need to edit Martha’s last name to unknown as you suggested-I plugged in Doyle in the hopes that someone searching for the family might find her on here but you are correct, I don’t have her maiden name.

I did go back to ancestry.com and checked thru Patrick’s sources I have cited to verify that he listed his parents as Edward and Martha Doyle on his Mass State Death Record.  I’m really hoping that was correct and I haven’t been searching false family members (ie Michael Doyle and Mary Carrol as pointed out above and seem to make sense!). Was it common to cite the wrong parents on federal and state documents???? Ugh!

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I was named, directly or indirectly, after three Patricks:

# St. Patrick, as I was born within four days of his feast day; and

# my own father, born in 1917, who in turn was named after

# Patrick Henry Pearse, executed in 1916.

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Parents' names were not generally listed in census returns, unless they were present in the household. And people generally don't register their own deaths, which is why we have been questioning the information provided by whoever did register Patrick's death. The death register currently cited on Patrick's profile does not even include the names of the informants. I am not an expert on naturalization records.

Please add links to these sources, if they exist, to Edward and Martha's profiles.

Searching WikiTree for Martha Doyle will pick up any Miss Martha Doyle and any Mrs. Martha Doyle, so showing the LNAB as Unknown will not prevent anyone from finding her, and indeed will help anyone who may know the actual LNAB to find her.

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Stephanie, a chara,

The only place I see his parents listed are the death record, if you have other documentation of this please do add it to his profile.

The parents named on the death record could indeed easily be incorrect. The person most likely to know (Patrick himself) was dead when the record was created. The informant could easily have been somebody who never met his parents! (And unless it was his wife, probably didn't).

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Sorry I had inadvertently copied/pasted all the sources I was checking on ancestry not the sources that cited his parents...they are listed on his death record.  

Was it common for the son to take the father's name in his own name in Ireland? So Patrick Edward Doyle, son of Edward Doyle, would be normal?  I have Patrick's first son b1851 was named Michael and his second son b1859 was Edward.  Assuming both are family names as well esp since neither were named after himself...

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Middle names weren't the norm in Ireland at the time, I wouldn't be surprised if Patrick just tacked his father"s name after his own when the yanks were asking for a middle name (I have relatives who did this). I don't actually see any sources on his profile that use the middle name though?

The traditional naming patern would usually be first son named after his father's father, second after the mother's father, third after the father, then you'd work your way through the father's and mother's brothers. I don't know if folks tended to bring the naming pattern with them to America though.

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So Patrick’s ancestry tree came from the search function when I entered his family-it has an auto populate function that pulls suggested family. There are a couple trees on there that it looks to have linked back to if that makes sense so I went thru the public trees and pulled him over, then added more sources. So Edward may have been thrown in there accidentally down the line someplace honestly and I pulled it over and continued the search. Making sooo much more sense that he may not be the son of Edward as I had pursued-this adds credence to Patrick possibly being the son of a Michael Doyle and me being on a wild goose chase.

Thank you to this group for all of this assistance and guidance. You guys are the best!

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Many of the user-donated family trees at ancestry.com are infected with what I call the "shaky-leaf-hint-virus".

Ancestry.com encourages new users to guess anything they don't know, and then sells those guesses as hints to the next wave of users, with shaky-leaf-hints to encourage the new user to click where he or she should not.

If we are questioning the parents in the death record, then I wonder where the names on the death record might have come from?

It seems a coincidence that Patrick married a woman with the same quite unusual name as his mother.

It would be a lot more normal for Patrick's wife to be named after her own mother.

But I see that the tree currently shows that Martha Linnehan's mother was not another Martha, but Margaret/Margeret Doyle - i.e. Martha married a man with the same surname as her own mother's maiden surname.

But the only sources for Margaret/Margeret Linnehan née Doyle are two death records for two different women who died as Doyle, not as Linnehan, one a civil record from Croom in County Limerick and the other a church record from County Down at the other end of the country.  Deaths of married women or widows were always recorded under their married surnames only, never under their maiden surnames.

A lot more tidying up of all of these profiles is required.

Please be careful also to use the "Last Name at Birth" and "Current Last Name" fields correctly for all married women.

When a surname is unknown, the convention is to use "Unknown" (capitalised, spelled out in full, not abbreviated to "Unkn") as a placeholder.  Only the profile manager can changed the LNAB.

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Thank you Paddy!  Updating from UNK to Unknown asap for her placeholder.  

Yes for the novice researcher, I think the shaky leaf virus that we all start with is dangerous.  This is a perfect example.  I assumed Edward to be a family name thus never questioned the middle name that was on his profile(s), from what his death record showed it would make sense.  You can see how the novice researcher brain works.  Again, thank you for all your input-very excited to start down a new path to find this family.