Comments on Beatrice (Ghent) De Vere

Question

On 16 Feb 2024 Andrew Lancaster wrote on Ghent-42:

It may be time to disconnect the parents. Not ideal that we don't even know where the theory came from though. That leaves open the small possibility that there is some article or thesis somewhere which we don't know about. I will post on G2G and see if anyone knows.

Comments

Interesting to see two Dutch place names used on one person said to be from France...

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veere_(stad)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghent

---

Actually there are several places which had names like Vere in Normandy and Brittany. If I understand correctly there is some doubt about which one is intended in this specific family.

However, Veere in Zeeland seems a long shot in this case? At the time it was in the Holy Roman Empire and there are relatively few if any big "Anglo Norman" landholders from over that border. Also, the article you cite says "Veere begon in de 13e eeuw".

Concerning Gent, although it is not so far by car from Veere today it was at the time technically in France and heavily involved in the England project. It was around about this period that the family of castellans of Gent acquired control of the county of Guisnes near Calais. So I suppose someone has connected that fact with this family for some reason.

Of course as a Belgian I am also compelled to point out that Gent is not "Dutch", only dutch-speaking. :)

---

I'm not an expert at all really, so please don't take my observation as any fact. What I do know a little about is that the current landscape as we know it is not at all how things were long time ago.

I'm probably derailing this convo, but this map of unknown precision might shed some light. You would need some sort of water transport at least.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschiedenis_van_Zeeland#/media/Bestand:1274_1617_Carta_Flandri%C3%A6_nr_v_Tuyne.jpg

Ghent and Dutch.. we can have long discussion if the Flemish Dutch is Dutch

---

Haha. Indeed. The terms Dutch and Flemish can be very confusing in the context of historical dialects.

Just on topic though, keep in mind that this interesting map (thanks) is from the 13th century. I am wondering if Veert would have existed, and who would have been the land owners or office holders in that area who might have used the word as a byname?

---

The nobility of Veere was actually the nobility of Borsselen.

See https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_heren_en_markiezen_van_Veere

---

And a (much) more reliable link: https://www.archieven.nl/nl/zoeken?mivast=0&mizig=210&miadt=239&miaet=1&micode=2750&minr=1106476&miview=inv2&milang=nl with a cited PhD thesis bottom).

---

Thanks Michel. But for this particular question we would need to know about who held the place in the 11th century and that is probably not known?

Answer 1

and a second question - should the profile's LNAB be changed from Ghent to Unknown?

The Wikipedia article for her husband gives only "Beatrice"

Aubrey I was married by 1086. As his spouse's name is recorded as Beatrice in 1104 and Beatrice is named as the mother of his eldest son, she was almost certainly his wife in 1086.^[7]

The article also mentions that she "held Aldham, Essex, in her own right of Odo bishop of Bayeux."

There is a roundabout connection to the Count of Manassès, in that her husband's Wikipedia article states that "Aubrey I's grandson Aubrey de Vere III married Beatrice, heiress to the county of Guînes, in the 12th century, but there was no issue, and their marriage was annulled after six or seven years." The linked article about Guînes includes the statement that, at the beginning of the 11th century, "Count Manassès founded a convent of the order of Saint-Benoit."

The profile currently attached as Beatrice's mother is Sibilla (Manasses) Ghent (abt.1005-). That profile also carries the warning: "Research suggests that this person may never have existed." It also has no sources and is not connected to any parents. 

Comments

or LNAB "Gand"? https://www.wikitree.com/photo.php/7/7d/De_Vere-290.jpg has her as "Beatrice de Gand"

---

IF she had a connection to any family that used a byname related to Ghent then...

It seems relevant to me that it is a placename, and the byname was in this period still seen as being a placename.

For what it is worth, the modern placename is known in the local language as Gent. I mention this because in many cases we use the modern placename in the modern local language.

In English the modern name is Ghent. I mention this because in cases where a place has a well-known English name, we sometimes prefer the English name. (I'd say that it is debateable whether Ghent is a really well-known English placename, like Antwerp or Brussels.)

---

so... change to Unknown OK? (I've detached her from Henry & Sibila.)

---

Yes Liz, that would be great...Thanks!

---

Done! If you'd like to co-manage her profile, or Aubrey III's (I just adopted his profile), let me know via private message or a trusted list request.

Answer 2

The idea that Beatrice was the daughter of Henry and Sibilla comes from The Wallop Family (1928, page 794), who conflated her husband Aubrey I with their grandson Aubrey III.

The Pedigree from the De Vere Society, which lists her as Beatrice de Gand, says it is principally drawn from The Complete Peerage. However, Cokayne (1945, page 195) states that the parentage of Beatrice is unknown.

The original creator of Beatrice and Henry here on WIkiTree posted a comment on his profile that she was in error and "Henry de Ghent should be merged with Henry de Bourbourg."  This merge would make sense because Cawley shows Sibylle as the first wife of Henry, Châtelain  de Bourbourg.

So, as PM of the currently assigned parents of Beatrice, I agree that it is time to disconnect her.  I would then be happy to edit and source them, and reconnect them with our WikiTree family.

Comments

Sounds logical to me! :)

---

Thanks Ron!