Where is the evidence that Henry Baldwin of Woburn was son of Richard Baldwin and Phillipa Corbman?

Question

The evidence on Henry Baldwin's profile indicates that Richard Baldwin of Aston Clinton surely existed, and with wife Phillipa baptized at least six children including a John and a Henry.

JL Chester 1884, p. 16, says "Of these children I have no later traces..." and CC Baldwin in NEHGR 26 (1872) pp. 302-3 says this John and Henry might be the immigrants (more on this below). NEHGR 113 (1959) pp. 245-8 doesn't go later than the mid-1500s and doesn't address the immigrants. CC Baldwin 1881, pp. 615-16 contains only a suggestion of Henry's origin being in Devonshire (which is odd considering he's the one who speculated the connection to Richard of Aston Clinton, nine years earlier in NEHGR). Anderson's Great Migration series (GMB3:1582) and newsletter (GMN 15:21) mention Henry of Woburn's presence in the colonies but there's no profile and no discussion of his origins. (As discussed previously here on G2G, Henry isn't included in Anderson's Great Migration Directory though perhaps he should have been.)

This is the complete passage in NEHGR 26 linking Henry to Richard:

"It has been surmised that he [Richard, husband of Phillipa and father of the six baptized children] might be Richard, who with daughter Jane is known to have been in Braintree in 1637, and that one of the Johns here, and Henry, of Woburn, might be his children. If so, he probably returned to England himself, as his "wife" Phillipa was buried in Aston Clinton, July 30, 1641."

There's a Richard Baldwin listed in Anderson's Great Migration Directory as having appeared in a 1637 court record (only) in Braintree, so that part checks out. Anderson indicates that Richard's origin is unknown. The rest of the paragraph is just one author's bald guess, and he says so himself!

In all I see dozens of sources on Henry's profile, which is great, but no sources supporting the key claim of his origin and the identity of his parents. While the connection to Richard and that 1623 baptism seems plausible, it's really far from proven by what's been written and cited so far.

Does anyone have any better or more recent sources to properly support that parent/child link (or any other one)?

Comments

I think part of what helps to connect Henry to these possible parents is the indication that he was a witness to his purported brother John's 1686 will. I have not checked the (original) will, and that would be wise.

Then, going back to the baptismal records, both Henry & John are found as sons of Richard in parish records. This may be a coincidence, as all 3 names were common.

I don't see any depositions for Henry or John to give us any specific ages for calculating a birth year, unfortunately. Henry's wife Phebe's birth is established, but it appears she was younger than her husband.

I think it would help to cite some of the primary records for  this family, and not lean too heavily on published genealogies.

Answer 1

I wrote this profile in full, obtained records from St Leonard. I found the information for Henry as PGM from Anderson's Newsletters, posted it in g2g several years ago, Jillaine approved it. I contacted nehgs & spoke with an Anderson assistant about the finding & she related it to Anderson. I will respond farther when my computer is repaired this am (1/23). Colleagues from the England Team assisted with this profile. There is actually more evidence for Henry Baldwin from Buckinghamshire on wiki tree than there is for John Baldwin who settled in Connecticut, who is also listed as PGM. I'm writing from my cell phone.

Comments

Hi Carol, I've written lots of profiles on WikiTree myself, glad to have you contributing here!

Keep in mind that on WikiTree, all profiles are fully collaborative. We don't have a concept of individuals owning profiles (and you didn't say that, of course). It also means, happily, no one person is solely responsible for or expected to know everything about a person or their profile. We work together!

I notice that you have a lot of information on Henry's profile about his time in Woburn, which is fantastic and I don't have any questions about that. You have a lot of information about the Baldwin family of Aston Clinton prior to Richard, which I'd say probably doesn't belong on Henry's profile, even if he is definitively connected to them (I'd put it on those individuals' profiles or on a Free Space Page). What I'm not seeing is the link and the evidence proving that the Henry baptized 1623 to Richard and Phillipa is Henry of Woburn. I went through all your sources cited and I am not finding the evidence in any of them.

On the PGM project (following Anderson's example/standard), we typically don't accept "might be" as proof and we typically don't accept "has the same name" alone as proof. Both of those could be what I described above as plausible but not proven. My question is, did I miss something, or are there additional sources not yet cited, where the evidence conclusively linking Henry to Richard can be found?

Of course, if that evidence hasn't been uncovered (yet), we WikiTreers aren't to blame for that. Some contributors here are genuine original researchers, which is pretty cool. I'm not (yet). I see our role as being accurate reporters of what's known and not known, published and not published, so far. And Profile Managers can play an important part in keeping profiles updated as new findings are discovered.

If we only have speculation that Richard might be the father of Henry of Woburn, there's nothing wrong with that. It's similar to what we know for lots of PGM migrants and we can simply explain it in Research Notes. Right now that isn't clear on Henry's profile but we can certainly develop it together!

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Cheryl, I'm on my android cuz the computer tech isn't here yet. There is a baptismal record that lists Henry Baldwin baptized at St Leonard's Church in Buckinghamshire as I recall 1623 and his parents are listed as Richard and Philippa Baldwin. That baptismal record as was obtained by Dave Welburn from the England team. I got that source along with baptismal records for Richard and Phillipa's other children including John Baldwin who is a brother to Henry, a couple of years ago from one of the local family centers. Those records came from the England team. Once my computer is working, I will take a photo of the baptismal record and upload it so that it can confirm at parents of Henry as Richard and Philippa Baldwin. My cousin's, one in CA and one in England also drove to St Leonard's perhaps 2 years ago and got the same info. I've also gotten images of marriage and other records for these Bucks Baldwins and upload them. Hope this helps.

Answer 2

Hello Cheryl, I have my computer up and running. The downside is that I need a new fan and will have to use my laptop (ugh) while the desktop is being serviced.

I just looked at Henry Baldwin's (of Woburn) profile. The source for his Baptism with parents listed is the very 1st source. It was obtained by Stephen Trueblood of the England Team around 2019. It is from Find My Past and I did not have a subscription (I live in the States), so Stephen was kind enough to access it. In the source, it does say 'Henry Baldwin son of Richard and Philippa...' I pasted the source below. 

When I did click on the link, it took me to FMP rather than the record per se. I have a hard copy that I since obtained at one of the local family centers in Tucson when I was taking a genetic genealogy course with our local genealogical society. It will be a while as I need to go through all of my Baldwin records. I will take a photo of the actual baptismal listing and upload it to this profile (as I did with the Marriage record). I really need to take care of this desktop computer first, though.

Just as a side comment separate from the baptismal record, you will see that LeEric Marvin has his Y700 listed. LeEric is actually Baldwin. His ancestry shows that around the mid 1700s it was Baldwin, then switched the next generation to Marvin. I can only guess that maybe his Baldwin father died, his mother married a Marvin and LeEric's LNAB then became Marvin. I oversee my brother's 700 and it is the exact same haplogroup as LeEric's. My brother does not do computers, or any technology other than is phone and TV. He is blind in one eye and limits any screen time. One of these days when I visit, I will have him sign the honor code, then help him upload his Y700. Even though I am the administrator for his Y700, I cannot in all honor upload this to WikiTree without him really becoming a member. I will do all the work once he is on.

Why am I sharing all this info that seems superfluous to Henry, Richard and Philippa? I am on FTDNA. Several years ago there was a wonderful man, Donn Devine, CG, who oversaw the Baldwin DNA on FTDNA. I knew nothing about DNA at that time and asked him why he 'lumped' Henry and John Baldwin (from Massachusetts) with the Baldwin's who were early settlers of Connecticut. Donn explained that he set up the Baldwin DNA by regions (CT, PA, etc) and that Henry and John's DNA was consistent with the Baldwin of CT and that they all shared a common ancestor. That ancestory is Henry (wife Kinge) Baldwin of Buckinghamshire, which actually now extends back to Richard Baldwin ca. 1500. The DNA consistency between these Baldwins is no clear-cut evidence (like records), but does support the male genetic relationship among these Bucks Baldwins. 

Thank you for keeping me honest and the biography/ sourcing as accurate as possible!

Here is the baptismal source for Henry of Woburn:

1. ↑ Findmypast.Com. Accessed 8 December 2019. https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBPRS%2FBUCKINGHAMSHIRE%2FBAP%2F001650053. Name: Henry Baldwin s/o Richard and Phillipa; Place: Aston Clinton, Buckinghamshire; Baptism Date: 08 Feb 1623,

Comments

Hi Carol, thanks for that!

We often see this scenario in PGM - we find a baptismal record for a person whose name is the same as the New England immigrant. What we then have to establish is, how do we know for sure that this actually is the New England immigrant, vs. another person with the same name?

I don't think the evidence on his profile is sufficient to settle that question yet (according to the standards RC Anderson and PGM typically use).

The most common type of evidence I've seen in this scenario would be a will, probate, or other deed for Richard, Phillippa, or any other immediate family (siblings, grandparents, uncles) that specifies "Henry, son of Richard, now living in New England" — jackpot, if we can find one of those!

Another thing that's commonly done is to check very thoroughly in Aston Clinton and surrounding areas to see whether Richard's son Henry is recorded as being still in England after our Henry arrived in Woburn. We'll either prove that Richard's son didn't go to Woburn, or we'll show that we've done our due diligence.

If we can't find evidence for Henry directly, we could still strengthen the case with any evidence we might find for John or Richard or any of Richard's other known children. That's what CC Baldwin was doing (in the article you cited) when he speculated that this Richard might have been the Richard named in a court record in Braintree in 1637 (the same man listed in Great Migration Directory, origin unknown). If we could examine that court record and link any of its circumstances back to Richard of Aston Clinton, I'd say knowing this Richard came to New England would be decent circumstantial evidence that his son(s) may have, too.

Bobbie asked a question above that I wasn't sure the answer to — do we know Henry of Woburn's age from any Woburn records? If we're saying he matches a 1623 English baptism then it would help to know that the age of the Woburn man supports a birth around that time (it's safe to assume that English families at that time were baptizing infants, not older children or adults). Do we have Henry's age at death or from any depositions?

I admit I don't know anywhere near enough about DNA to use it as evidence. It sounds like the Y-DNA/FTDNA analysis done so far is sufficient to suggest a connection to a common ancestor of the Baldwins around Aston Clinton, generally, but I'm not seeing anything specific enough in the DNA to link Henry of Woburn directly to Richard (vs., say, a different branch of that family). We still need the other records to flesh out the details of how he's connected to those ancestors. (Any DNA pros want to weigh in?)

To be clear, I think it's fine if Henry of Woburn's parentage is possible or plausible but not proven, and I don't think it's your or my personal responsibility to find the proof. :)  I just wanted to check what we know and don't know right now, so we can be as clear as possible on their profiles — and give future researchers an opportunity to improve what we know!