What is Mats Ersson's father's name?

Question

I have found three sources that list Mats Ersson's father, and I'm not sure about his last name.  The first letter looks like a capital T and a capital S together, which may mean that his name was Tsornsson or Stornsson.  I haven't seen either of those before so I want to make sure I'm reading it right. 

Here are the sources: 

• (First in lower left family) Möklinta kyrkoarkiv, Husförhörslängder, SE/ULA/11089/A I/1 (1656-1667), bildid: C0009840_00035, sida 27 | https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0009840_00035
• (First in lower family) Möklinta kyrkoarkiv, Husförhörslängder, SE/ULA/11089/A I/2 (1686-1705), bildid: C0009841_00029, sida 29 | https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0009841_00029
• (#36) Möklinta kyrkoarkiv, Födelse- och dopböcker, SE/ULA/11089/C/1 (1688-1725), bildid: C0009861_00127, sida 114 | https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0009861_00127

Also, as long as I have people looking at his obituary (the third link), could I get some feedback on what I've managed to extract from it?  

Erich Tsornnson(?) from Röömosa was born in Skinnarbo in 1604.  (Skinnarbo doesn't seem to be in Möklinta.)  In 1633 he married Bryta Ericsdotter from Litslebo.  They were married for 46 years. (This means she died in 1679, but that's in the middle of a 15 year gap in the burial records.)  I think it says they had 9 children and 3 had died previously.  After his wife died he was a widower for 15 years. (This further confirms that she died in 1679.)  

From the next few lines I can only pick out words here and there, and can't really make sense of much of it. Is there something about old age coming slowly and another (unnamed) illness arising in the meantime and causing his death?  At the end I see his death date of 8 Aug and that he was buried on 19 Aug and he was 90 years old.  

Tack!

Ben 

Answer 1

I think it is a fancy "T" with bells and whistles on it.

"Erich Törneson" would be the spelling in the first record.

Normalized spelling "Erik Törnesson".

Comments

I think you have the beginning right:

"Erich Torneson ifrån Röömossa var föd uti Skinnarrbo A° 1604"

"A° 1633 gifte han sig med Brijta Erichsdott. i Lislebo,"

Normalized spelling: "Rödmossa","Skinnarbo", "Britta Eriksdotter", "Lisselbo".

---

There is a Skinnarbo place in Möklinta parish! It must be where he is from.

Yes, I also think it says they were married for 46 years. It definitely says he was a widower for 15 years, "varit enkling i 15 åhr". I also think she died in 1679.

Yes, I think he died on Aug 8, 1694.

---

The wife Britta is missing in your second record (1686-1705), which fits with her being dead already. 

And there is a Lisselbo in Möklinta too.

---

Thanks D!  You're right about the "T".  I searched through the 1656-67 book trying to find Skinnarbo and I noticed a Tomas with the same fancy T.  I didn't find Skinnarbo though, and it's not in the index of the 1686-1705 book either.  Perhaps it was too small to have its own entry in the record books?  The closest name I found was Skräddarbo.

Thanks for the HQ color version of the record also!

---

In that church index you will only (mostly) find the villages.
Not every farm name. I think Skinnarbo could be the name of a very small farm that might not exist anymore?
Search for Skinnarbo in Möklinta here: https://ortnamnsregistret.isof.se/
Choose "Id för ortnamn" and enter 1860464

Here is Lisselbo on a map, You can see Rödmossa north of Lisselbo. I can not find Skinnarbo on this map.
https://www.hembygd.se/shf/plats/173032;type=map

---

I found Erik Törnesson b 1604 in Skinnarbo here: https://gorek.se/onewebmedia/moklinta-fodda.pdf

Also in here:
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:j13NCmgXc30J:https://www.petersjogren.se/hellsten.htm&hl=en&gl=se

---

Skinnarbo is in the village Forsbo?
https://www4.sprakochfolkminnen.se/NAU/bilder/_s2ux001/410222c1/p3/0000391a.pdf

---

Seems like Forsbo is the newer name. Skinnarbo is an older name for the same village?
https://www4.sprakochfolkminnen.se/NAU/bilder/_s2ux001/410222c1/p3/0000115a.pdf

---

Yes, Forsbo and Skinnarbo is the same village:
https://ortnamnsregistret.isof.se/place-names/454460

---

Thanks for the maps and location info!  I had not seen those sites before.  I found Forsbo on the map.  It's near the river to the north, in the northwest corner of the county.  

The other two links (where you found Erik Törnesson) appear to be personal genealogy sites (apparently made by distant cousins of mine).  How did you find those?  
Actually I see that Göran Ekberg's page comes up when I do a Google search, but not the other one.

---

I love the parish maps on hembygd.se. The parish borders are so clear.
I found both personal sites googling "Erik Törnesson 1604 Skinnarbo".
petersjogren.se is down so I posted the cached link above.

Answer 2

The death record in HQ color from ArkivDigital:
https://pasteboard.co/pybfvcPNKa1D.jpg

Answer 3

This is what I have so far, I will need some help with some of the words:

"Erich Torneson ifrån Röömossa var föd uti Skinnarrbo A° 1604

A° 1633 giftte han sig med Brijta Erichsdott. i Lislebo, lefvde

med henne i en ... . egtenskapskarleck samman i 46 åhr. hade

sammans 9 st. barn afv hvilka 3 st. ..... afv ..... . afv

sin hustrus död varit enckling i 15 åhrs tijd. uti ..... sitt

lefverne varit ..... som flijtig och gudfruchtig, prisat Gud

och hans ord, ..... tidigdt .. Nattvard. Ett åhrs tijd hållits

vijd sengen dels avf ålderdombs svaghet, dels avf annan siuck-

domb tillfellig havt, i medan tijd haftt sitt hop till Gud, och i

samma hop fick en öm salig ..... d 8 Aug. begrofvs

d 19 .... på södersidan om Klockstaplen. Åldern ... 90 åhr."

Comments

Thank you for the transcription!  

Oh, södersidan! I was trying to figure out what sedan sidan could possibly mean.  I hadn't figured out Klockstaplen either

The bell tower that he was buried on the south side of was built 4 years earlier in 1690 and is still standing. https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6klinta_kyrka

I was able to virtually "stroll" around the tower and cemetery in Google Street View.  I assume a grave marker from 1694 would probably be long gone, having likely been made of wood.  

I don't know yet whether 3 of their children had died, or only 3 were left living, but I may be able to figure that out from other sources at some point. Then maybe the words after "afv hvilka 3" will make sense.  

---

I think it has to be "af hvilka 3 st fadren [efter] lefva. [efter] sin hustrus död" (and so on). Three surviving.

The exact transliteration of the characters eludes me, but it's the same glyph in both spots.

---

Thanks Eva! 
Yes that is what we expect it to be but it is hard to fit the letters.
I think "fadren" is definitely correct.
Forget my first try: "afv hvilka 3 st. ...... afv ..... . afv sin hustrus död".
Comparing my second and third "afv" with the first, they are clearly not the same at all.
Context is everything, "efter" makes so much sense in both places.
The word lefva makes sense but it  looks like there are two or three letters not one after "lefv" like "lefvde" or "lefvade".
The first part of the word is "lefv..." for sure.
I co-sign on "fadren" and "efter", but I vote for "lefvade" instead of "lefva".
Like this:
 "afv hvilka 3 st. fadren efter lefvade. efter sin hustrus död"

---

Well together we got all the facts right, pretty much. But there is real beauty in getting the details correct in the spelling! Got help from the amazing Kalle Birgersson at anbytarforum:

"Erich Tornesson ifrån Röömosse war föd uti Skinnarebo Ao 1604
Ao 1633. giffte han sig med Brijta Erichsdott. i Lislebo, leffde
med henne i en rett echtenskaps kerleck samman i 46 åhr. hade
sammans 9 st. barnn. aff hwilka 3 st. fadren efftr leffwa. efftr
sin hustru död warit enckling i 15 åhrs tijd. uti gemene sitt
leffwerne warit alffwarsam flijtig och gudfruchtig, elskat gud
och hans ord, bruckat tidigdt Hs. Nattwardh. Ett åhrs tijd hållits
wijd sengen dels aff ålderdombs swagheet, dels aff annan siuck-
doms tillfelligheet, i medler tijd hafft sitt hop till Gud, och i
samma hop fick en önskelig omwexling d. 8 Aug. begroffs
d. 19 hart på södresidan om klåckstaplen. Åldren ähr 90 åhr"

---

Ben, it seems you can read this original spelling quite well?
Instead of us doing a full normalized transcription, you can just ask if there are some words that are unclear?

---

Ja självklart! Jag har en 850 dagars streak på Duolingo. Jag klarar det härifrån! 

Ok, really I still use Google Translate a lot, but it works surprisingly well and I know enough to (sometimes) be able to come up with (close enough) modern spellings even if I don't know what the word means. The biggest hurdle is the handwriting, and you (and Kalle) have gotten me past that. Tusen tack för det!

The only bit that it isn't quite making sense of now is the phrase "fick en önskelig omwexling". That's coming through as "received a desirable change".  From the context I assume it's a fancy way of saying that he died, but maybe along the lines of "made the joyous transition from earth to heaven", or something like that.  

---

Yes, and Eva Ekeblad too!
"hafft sitt hop till Gud, och i
samma hop fick en önskelig omwexling "
"haft sitt hopp till Gud, och i samma hopp fick en önskad omväxling" 
"had his hope in God, and in the same hope received a desired change"

Yes, he was old and sick and it was hard and he hoped and believed that god would have mercy and free him from his earthly life. Kinda sorta.

Answer 4

Map Möklinta from 1640:
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/R0000985_00131

Right, top of the page, red letter "G" = Rödmossa, I think.
Right, red letter "A" = Lisselbo, I think.

Lisselbo related:
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/topografi/10630

Rödmossa related:
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/topografi/10631

Answer 5

Möklinta bell tower.
Ben, I'm sorry, this might disappoint.
I think the standing bell tower is built 1698.
I think the wikipedia page is wrong.

Not only do these texts below say 1698 (p.13,p.26), they also point out that the new 1698 bell tower was outside the graveyard until 1890 (p.14,p.26). The older pre-1698 bell tower must have been standing inside the graveyard in 1694. Being buried outside the graveyard was sinful and shameful for the family. It was for people who committed suicide. The obituary would not have been like this if he really was buried outside the graveyard. See the nice 1754 engraving on p.14, "Olof Graus gravyr över Möklinta kyrka och kyrkogård, 1754. På bilden syns bogårdsmuren med stigluckorna. Klockstapeln stod utanför kyrkogården."

p.13 "1698"
p.16 "1698"
Möklinta kyrkogård Kulturhistorisk inventering av gravvårdar
https://vastmanlandslansmuseum.se/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/2013-B37-Mo%CC%88klinta-kyrkoga%CC%8Ard-kulturhistorisk-invetnering-av-gravva%CC%8Ardar.pdf

p.5 "1698"
p.6 "1698"
Möklinta kyrkas klockstapel
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/624490e50e350d6e6e3cd5e7/t/6297502461ab0773d7057b16/1654083621180/KM2016_19.pdf

Bonus, not about bell tower build year:
Möklinta kyrka Friläggning av sockel 
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/624490e50e350d6e6e3cd5e7/t/62977edb8d04716a4f88d42b/1654095589514/KM2013_61.pdf

Bonus, not about bell tower build year:
Möklinta kyrka och Sala sockenkyrka
Tjärning och åtgärdande av spåntak  
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/624490e50e350d6e6e3cd5e7/t/62a0bb2f1e8cdb49d6575531/1654700862019/KM2012_72.pdf
 

Comments

Oops!  I guess some Wikipedia contributor didn't do their research!  Thanks for the correction and the additional reading.  Lots of interesting maps and illustrations there.  

It looks like the graveyard may have originally been only immediately east and west of the church itself, so I suppose the original bell tower would have been either just east or just west of the north side of the church.

In my virtual "stroll" around the church I noticed that the photos were submitted by someone named "Bruno Filmklöv360".  Is that you?

---

Nope, not me. I have no previous knowledge of this parish. Never been there, never read anything before.