"Top level category removed"? [closed]

Question

I have clearly been having some trouble with the use of location categories - sorry if I have caused anyone unnecessary work!

I understand that "top level" location categories should not be used on individual profiles, but how on earth is one supposed to know which of the location categories offered in a drop-down selection list will be deleted (in less than an hour!) because they are "top level"? I was looking for location categories for Dublin, and found scores of listings for every imaginable census district, apparently multiple "religious congregation" categories and lots of other things - but the only thing in the list that made any sense was "County Dublin" - there was no "Dublin, County Dublin" offered in the list. So I categorized with the most precise location category I could - fully intending to revisit the dozens of new profiles I created in the last four or five hours and do some fine-tuning.

I guess I wouldn't mind so much if, instead of simply DELETING the top-level category, my well-meaning friend had REPLACED it with a more appropriate alternative.

Location categories are NOT the easiest thing to learn to use correctly - and I'll admit I've got a long way still to go. But is there any chance that our friendly (and generally very considerate) data-doctor and monitoring teams might be gently encouraged to refrain from simply DELETING categories that were added in the last few hours (or even days)?  Maybe replace them with a "placeholder" category instead? If we are going to insist that ONLY "lowest level" location categories may be used, then there needs to be a "lowest level" category as a catch-all under each upper-level category. (So, if "United States" is going to be deleted, then there should be a "unknown town, unknown county, unknown state, United States" category that is "low-level" enough to survive for at least a couple of days...

Thanks for your consideration.

 (the linked profile is only one of about a dozen with similar deletions VERY shortly after the profile was created)

Comments

Perhaps this is relevant, not least bullet points 4 and 10.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:Data_Doctors#Code_of_Conduct_for_Data_Doctor_Work

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This wasn't done on a Data Doctor basis and the person who did it is not a member of the Data Doctor Project at all. So the Data Doctor code of conduct does not really apply.

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That code of conduct is a good guide for anyone. It's always better to offer replacement information than just to remove something.

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Instead of using a drop down for a category, if you are unsure of a category, it would be good to go to a possible category to see if it is a 'top' level category and might have lower level categories.

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And how do you know that GM didn't ignore or did not know Ireland Project guidelines about not using High Level Categories? It is quite possible there is that guideline (Not involved in the Ireland Project so can not confirm) as it is one in several Geographical Projects I am in.

If people do not know a particular projects guidelines there is no way they may know them.

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Thinking about this further, I seem to remember hearing that top-level categories (as Darren implies below) are not offered in the category picker dropdown lists. Indeed, as far as I can see, if you type "County Dublin" into the category picker, then Category: County Dublin itself is not offered, only categories with longer names.

GM, if you did see the bare County Dublin category in a dropdown list, maybe the mechanism to suppress top-level categories there doesn't always work. If on the other hand you didn't see it, that was a clue not to use it.

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@Linda - thanks for pointing that out! I hadn't thought of that very logical approach...

Answer 1

Category: Dublin City, Ireland is the category for Dublin. There are more precise location categories as well but without knowing the profiles edited I can't provide their direct links. It is about 15th on the category drop down list for me. 

What is not in the drop down list is County Dublin by itself. So you must have clicked on a different category and manually change it to County Dublin. The system does not give people a warning that they have used a High Level category and there is no requirement that someone correcting the High Level error to correctly categorize the profile. 

Next time please if you are unsure of the proper category either ask in G2G or look for the proper category from a category you can find. For example if you look at Category:County_Dublin you would have seen Dublin City, Ireland or the category options of Baronies, Civil Parishes, Towns, Townlands or even Category:Unknown Location, County Dublin  which is a catch all category of the like you have suggested.

Comments

Thanks for all the constructive answers and comments! I would like to clarify a few points:

a) I definitely used the dropdown offered in the "location categories" button offered at the top of the Biography text editing section, and I definitely did not create my own category. (I haven't dared to create location categories except on a purely "test" basis - what a hornets' nest!)

b) My location language setting defaults to German, but I have been using Irish for the Ireland Native profiles. That may prove to be important, but I had not considered that aspect at the time, and have not tested it. In any case, "Dublin, Ireland" was NOT an option, and "County Dublin" was.

c) I sincerely appreciate the work done by the individual who was helping me with these location categories! The same person who deleted my "top level" location categories also very quickly helped me out by creating a new location category I needed. This question was NOT intended as a personal complaint - each of us deserves to have our work on the common tree respected, and each of us is entitled to make mistakes!

d) I do think it would be worthwhile to check the technical aspects involved: are the dropdowns filtering location categories correctly? How are the location categories that are "OK for profiles" identifiable? "Dublin, Ireland" is certainly not the "lowest level" location category available. How does a user know it is OK for use on profiles, while "County Dublin" is not? (please do not respond with reference to category or project guideline PAGES, unless preferred policy is "better no category at all if not 100% certain")

e) I will certainly make the effort to follow the excellent advice given in this answer, and clean up my new profiles! Thanks again for everyone's support and patience.

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Perhaps the following wording on the Counties of Ireland and County Dublin category page should be reviewed and changed to "will be deleted"

Any individual profiles found in this category will be reviewed and re-categorised as needed.

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Are the category names displayed for you in German or English? If they are showing in German that could be causing the issue. 

Dublin City, Ireland shows in the drop down lists but Dublin, Ireland does not as it isn't a category. County Dublin does not show as it's own category in the drop down list as it is a high level category. Can you share a screen shot showing it does for you? My comment about changing an existing category is from experience from lots of people adjusting a category to a high level category by deleting some of the wording. 

Any category that is not supposed to have profiles in should never show in the drop down list and that is how you would know that you can put profiles in them. The other way is to look at the actual category page and there will be a message there saying This is a high level category. Please do not add individual profiles. Add profiles to the narrowest category possible. If you see that message then you know not to add profiles there and to look for other categories.

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As to the wording on the Ireland categories that is something that should be brought up with the Ireland Project directly as it is their ruling

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Hi Darren,

take a look at the images in

Screenshots (wikitree.com)

The dropdown entries are in English, my setting for the location fields in the profile is usually German - but I change it to English (or in this case Irish) when working in other areas. No idea whether that might affect this dropdown.

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I see what the bug is. The Wikitree Browser Extension option for choosing Locations categories is showing categories that it shouldn't and that the category picker does not. So it is not picking up that a High Level category (in this case County Dublin) should not be provided as an option. The category picker (The 4 boxes next to the big "C" for citing sources) does not show High Level categories.

I did not realize that the different drop down boxes were showing different information

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Okay GM Garrettson I have messaged the WBE developer. There is supposed to be some coding to prevent High level categories showing so something has gone wrong.

Hopefully it is an easy fix for the developer.

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Thanks, Darren! In the meantime, the various answers and comments have taught me a lot about finding and using location categories. The G2G community is definitely one of the best "features" of WikiTree!

Answer 2

To assist in trouble-shooting:

- Entering "Dublin" in the "Select Location Category" window with the "location" checkbox activated results in over 100 matches, beginning with 1901 census districts for County Dublin.

- Entering "City of Dublin" results in a single match, the Barony Dublin City, County Dublin

- Entering "County Dublin" results in over 100 matches, again beginning with the census districts, and including "County Dublin" between "Constables... " and "Donabate RC Parish,..."

- Entering "Dublin City" or "City Dublin" results in a shorter list which included "Dublin City, Ireland".

I will gladly use that "Dublin City" location category for the profiles involved in the deletion, but I would like to know, in general, whether the (RC, COI or civic) parish location categories and census district categories should be considered as "non-location" information (and therefore added in addition to the "Dublin City" or as "lower-level location" categories (and there by used instead of the "Dublin City" category.

Perhaps something like the checkbox for "location" could be added to the dropdown screen, so that "religious organisational units" and "Census districts" could be included or excluded when searching for matching categories.

Comments

Your checkbox idea for the drop down screen is an interesting idea to suggest. It would likely be difficult to implement as Census categories are connected to location categories and some pure location categories have Census in the location name.

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Just out of curiosity: what is a "pure" location category?

As you think about which categories should be shown when the "location" checkbox is activated, maybe a clear definition would be helpful. My suggestion would be that a "pure" location category might be defined as only the "lowest level" location categories - ideally mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive - which can (and should) be used on individual profiles.

There would also need to be a few special "place-holder" entries (pseudo locations) to allow for uncertainty without leaving that "lowest level". I have seen some areas in which that basic approach appears to already be in use, so if "County Dublin" is an (undesirable) "upper level location category", then there needs to be an "unknown town, County Dublin" category, etc. (I saw something like that, but won't swear that it was for Dublin)

All other categories, including the collective or "upper level" geo-political location categories and any other location-based administrative categorization schemes (census, ecclesiastic, etc.) should disappear from the list if the checkbox is activated. The idea of adding additional checkboxes for those other schemes might be "nice to have", but probably neither worth the effort nor something that can be easily maintained over time.

More important would be the ability to select a particular geographic area (probably country, but perhaps a shallow hierarchy like region-country-state). Individual project leaders could be given the authority / the task to determine which location categories in "their" region of responsibility should get the "stamp of purity" and appear in the dropdown. That would probably make it MUCH easier for users to comply with the project guidelines - without having to memorize (or constantly refer to) the guidelines for each project area they may be working in.

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My definition of Pure Location is what the people call the location. I have found some places that use Census or Census Division as part of what people actually use for their locations. Mostly in Canada and the United States but there is a possibility of other localities having similar wordings.

And there are location categories which are for Towns or smaller locations that have subcategories attached to them which throws up an issue with setting the Location checkbox to the Lowest level category. And in some locations there can be profiles in multiple levels depending on the time and jurisdictions involved. So what works for Ireland will likely not work in Germany or New Zealand for examples. So there is a bit of programming needed which could be quite hard for people not used to it.