France project, parents added back to this pre-1700 profile, previously removed

Question

Jeanne Leroy just had parents added back to her profile, which had previously been removed by France Project leader.  No evidence added to support the filiation.  In need of verification and probably PPP also.

Answer 1

Sigh! Not only were the parents added back, the research note explaining that they were incorrect was deleted and the birth details completely changed.

The profile has now been adopted by the France project and protected.

Should more information on Jeanne Leroy's parentage be uncovered, this will need to be discussed in G2G.

Comments

Merci Isabelle.  

Answer 2

The source for Jeanne's parents appears to be this analysis of a notarial act of 7 June 1605 before Belart (continues onto the next image):

https://www.geneanet.org/registres/view/233818

This is the fonds this image comes from:

https://www.archivespasdecalais.fr/Chercher/Fonds-et-collections/Archives-privees/Archives-d-erudits-et-d-historiens/12-J-Collection-Rodiere

And here is a link to the page in the PDF inventory for this cote (see page 25 / image 29):

http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_visu_instrument.php?id=17249

Jacques Belart appears to have been a notary in Étude notariale n° 105 de Montreuil (4 E 105), Office II during this period:

https://www.archivespasdecalais.fr/Chercher/Fonds-et-collections/Archives-notariales/Acces-alphabetique-aux-instruments-de-recherche/Etudes-notariales-de-Montreuil-4-E-104-a-105/Etude-notariale-n-105-de-Montreuil-4-E-105

http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_visu_instrument.php?id=12860

Cote 4 E 105/110 (1605-1607) appears to cover the relevant time period, and there are some cotes with large ranges of years: 4 E 105/847 (1571-1773), 4 E 105/844 (1574-1750), in case someone wants to find the original.

Comments

hi Mark,

Thank you, this gives the lineage for Jeanne Lacherer to her parents François Lacherer and Jeanne Leroy, but does not give parents for Jeanne Leroy.

---

My apologies -- I meant to say that this is the underlying evidence for Jeanne Lacherer's parents, not Jeanne Leroy's. I only mentioned it as the profile references a Geneanet profile that doesn't provide other source citations.

Edit: I'd also mention that should all the places be changed over to Montreuil, Picardie, France? Jetté seems to suggest Jeanne Lacherer and her husband Antoine were from the hamlet of Trois-Maisons in Bazinghen (which I assume is the lieu-dit currently labeled LES TROIS MAISONS in that commune), but doesn't provide any article citations for this family.

---

the notary would not have been in a small village but in Montreuil, doesn't mean that the family lived there, just had to go there for legalities like this.

And by the way, thanks for finding this, will take some careful reading, I believe there may be more to be learned from this document, which is an accounting done of the tutorship.  I briefly glanced through it, seem to be names galore, whether they are related or not will need careful study.

---

That's one of the reasons I wanted to share the analysis itself, since it seems like there was a lot going on in this bundle of papers.

Pas-de-Calais has a GIS portal for their notarial records:

https://portailsig.pasdecalais.fr/arcgis/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=ace9c2ea0b4548b9bfd63762ea9a9c26

Marquise, a bordering town to Bazinghen, has records back to 1609 (4 E 102). Boulogne-sur-Mer has at least 3 études with records back to the 1500s (4 E 47; 4 E 48; 4 E 50). There are several other places that one could have traveled through on the way from Bazinghen to Montreuil-sur-Mer as well with 16th-century notarial acts, including Samer (4 E 128) and Étaples (4 E 65). They could also go half the distance the other direction to Calais, with 2 études going back to the 1500s (4 E 52; 4 E 55).

I think it's pretty unlikely someone would skip over all of these places and go to Montreuil-sur-Mer from Bazinghen just for creating legal documents unless they had other interests there.

---

choice of notary often does not depend on proximity only.  It might be that this accounting was done at the request of someone who resided nearer that notary or had used him previously.  Just no way to tell.

---

So I ordered the 1605 act from the departmental archives. I'm guessing there's a good chance they'll tell me an independent researcher needs to do it, but I figured it was worth trying.

I'm still trying to figure out where exactly Jetté got the idea that Antoine and Jeanne came from Bazinghen, but I see the following:

• Eugène Lomier, Les Picards au Canada (Mamers: Gabriel Enault; Paris: Société d'histoire du Canada, 1926), 23-24. https://numerique.banq.qc.ca/patrimoine/details/52327/3254904
   
  • It suggests that the Destroismaisons moved to Montreuil-sur-Mer in the 1540s (with some moving back to Bazinghen), but doesn't specifically speak to this couple. It also doesn't connect how they know that a family with this last name that lived in Bazinghen moved to Montreuil-sur-Mer beyond general events in the region. This work doesn't strike me as all that scientific.
     
• Roland-Yves Gagné, "Le Fonds Godbout redécouvert," Mémoires de la Société généalogique canadienne-française 49, no. 3 (cahier 217, automne 1998): 183-186.
   
  • Direct quote: 'La provenance du "hameau des Trois-Maisons" ne vient donc que du nom de famille.'
     
  • Almost all the acts he cites were in Montreuil-sur-Mer, although it seems Godbout was missing some (i.e., it doesn't reference Adam's 1600 baptism, or his sister Jeanne or Madeleine's baptisms from 1603 or 1605, respectively).

Parish registers for Notre-Dame de Montreuil-sur-Mer don't start until 1597, so if there were any of their children before Adam baptized at that parish, there's a good chance we wouldn't know about it.

---

Dr Lomier was an antiquarian, per his ''signature'' at the end of his work.  He doesn't cite his sources much, which is regrettable, but is tracking broad outlines of families rather than detailed accounts, in most instances.  He does cite the presence of Des-Trois-Maisons family in Bazinghen after the area was returned to France as being armorers and gunsmiths in 1645.  He appears to have started his work based on Tanguay's dictionary.  Basically broad outlines only.

---

as for the Des-Trois-Maisons as a place name, if it was a hamlet, it can have disappeared from memory and records very easily.  The family name may actually stem from it and not the other way around.  I've seen similar in the name Maison-Seule.  Would not have necessarily have had a church etc, being too small.  Roland-Yves Gagné is drawing his own conclusions on the subject, doesn't mean he is right.  No evidence either way.

---

The reference to them living in 1645 on the rue du Pot d'Etain is almost certainly a veiled reference to the inventaire après décès for Adam, also filed with a notary in Montreuil-sur-Mer (and which I also requested from the archives):

https://en.geneanet.org/archival-registers/view/218839/37

Adam's baptismal record, burial record, and the baptismal records of 5 of his children are all in Montreuil-sur-Mer, so I don't think there's really any question where he lived. Section C of Montreuil-sur-Mer's 1810 cadastre shows this rue in the same place as that portion of the modern-day Rue Pierre Ledent south of its intersection with Rue due Thorin:

https://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/v2/ad62/visualiseur/cadastre.html?id=365212285

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/50.46346/1.75988

Fundamentally, coming back to the original question as to whether the places should all be changed to Montreuil, Picardie, France, it seems like we have at least some indirect evidence for Montreuil, as their descendants were living there by 1600, and, as far as I can see, nothing for Bazinghen beyond the name matching the place, so I guess I'm having trouble understanding why this proposed change seems to be controversial? I don't include -sur-Mer in my proposal, as the official name didn't change until 2023:

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000046285138

Also, to clarify my prior comments about the lieu-dit, if you search the modern-day cadastre for the "LES TROIS MAISONS" Lieu-dit in Bazinghen, it shows some parcels immediately west of the village of Noirbernes (which itself is in the neighboring commune of Audembert), so it does still appear on current maps:

https://www.cadastre.gouv.fr/scpc/accueil.do

---

ok, getting a bit lost in this conversation, who do you think should be in Montreuil?  This all started with Jeanne Lacherer, whose place of birth is listed as Trois-Maisons, Bazzinghen, Boulogne, Picardie (Pas-de-Calais, and place of death only Boulogne...