Help with connections for Sir Donald Burns Sangster?

+4 votes
359 views

I'm going to be researching connections for Donald Sangster. As of today, his CC7 is 56 — with no connection to our big tree.

With a name like Sir Donald Burns Sangster this Jamaican Prime Minister and National Hero has plenty of Scottish ancestry. There is some Webster and Nicol too.

He's a 5-star profile so whilst I try to improve the state of his bio and take a look again at the Jamaican links would anyone from the Scottish project like to help me with this? Thank you!

WikiTree profile: Donald Sangster
in Genealogy Help by D Anonymous G2G6 Mach 5 (51.3k points)
recategorized by D Anonymous

7 Answers

+6 votes
Hi, I'm not of the Scottish project but I don't know if you already saw it but D. S. seems to have according to Familysearch a sister named Jeslyn whose profile ID is G992-3YY and on said profile there were the following sources:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XNFG-89K

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSP-PXC7

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS5-86HV

There's also two half brothers with different mothers than his.

The first one is Frank Lister Sangster, ID G3PF-PMZ, for which I found the following sources:

https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-1-498348891-1-500548/frank-lister-sangster-in-myheritage-family-trees

https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-1-813417501-1-500014/frank-lister-sangster-in-myheritage-family-trees

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939Z-BK9W-QN

His mother Alice Maud Vaz has a profile too, with ID LTKN-GS6 and there's the 4 following sources where there's evidence of a daughter she also had that carries her surname

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VHDP-MV1

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XNVP-K24

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XNQT-23L

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVST-WT43

The other half brother is named Leopold Constantine Sangster, his ID is LBRB-9TC and I didn't find anything about his mother. I only found these sources of which two mention also his wife named Ivy Mirriam Messam:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS5-H5WN

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSR-5SDQ

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QK9S-GC4C

Please let me know if it was of any help
by Giada Rizzato G2G6 Mach 1 (16.5k points)
edited by Giada Rizzato

Great detective work Giada! Thank you yes

No problem, I will try to see if I will find anything else on Familysearch again
From what I see on familysearch.org the above is not correct,at any rate not all of it.Sir Donald Burns Sangster’s ID on family search is L6F6-LJL and his connections can easily be traced,So AliceMaud Vaz was Dir Donald’s grandmother,not his mother
+5 votes
We will do our best to see what we can find to build out his Scottish lines.

Amy, co-leader for Scotland Project
by Amy Gilpin G2G6 Pilot (218k points)

Hi Amy, I think I've sorted out the family of Jane "Curly" Watt, she was initially attached to the wrong parents, not surprising to be fair it's common in many outside trees. Too many people / families with the same names! It took me a process of elimination to find the right ones, and the Curly tee-name was very useful during the research

Am going to try and add her parents and all her siblings details so there should be a whole lot more profiles could be added (or checked for existing ones?) just saying in case there is anyone in the Scotland Project already working on this..

+5 votes

This branch ends up in Canada https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Plummer-5075

by S Stevenson G2G6 Pilot (254k points)

Trees at other sites have him having two children with (unconnected branch as well) https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Joaya-1

But i can’t figure out in her timeline when she had these children based on her sources. 

He will show as connected tomorrow. Connected him to two branches.
+5 votes

Thank you everyone! I was working on the Plummer line when Giada provided the other hints, but it was late and I was getting tired. So off I went to bed and this morning find the connection made smiley Great work over time zones yes

by D Anonymous G2G6 Mach 5 (51.3k points)
+4 votes

Hi, I've done what I can to sort out the family and source for [[Watt-3808|Jane Curly (Watt) Sangster (1841-1884)]].. she was initially attached to the wrong parents, It was very helpful to have her tee-name of Curly identified somewhere in the original notes  - that is often the only way to tell apart the different close knit families with the same names! (I've popped a note in her profile about her tee-name, you'll see her father has the same tee-name,, and although possibly not specified it would mean all Jane's siblings wuld have the same tee-name.. unless it's a brother/ son who goes on to get his own boat / tee-name / family

I will try to add profiles for her parents, however their names are in her profile if anyone else is working on this too.. still trying to get connecting sources as it looks like Jane's father hasn't caught the 2 x existing Census sources (may have been off fishing / based elsewhere temporarily)

HTH for now

by ClaireSuzy C G2G6 Mach 2 (29.9k points)

Brilliant thank you yes

Interesting to read her bio about separating the different families on a boat! I'm intrigued now about the transition from fisherman's daughter to marrying someone in Jamaica... another rabbit hole laugh

I just might (no proof) have found a partial answer to that

the puzzle I've had while researching this family is why her father James "Curly" had never appeared on any 1841-1891 Scottish census (he coud of course have always been at sea), but then Jane (or Jean) herself was missing in 1861

I've now found father James in 1881 (back home in Banffshire btw) with another daughter

using ancestry hints (after weeding out the wrong ones ;)) I came across a very likely location for Jane, her brother John and her father James "Curly" in 1861 - being Kinlochbervie Sutherland (another remote fishing location!).. it's in her profile now too with a description. 

It's the opposite side of the country which is why I was ignoring it mostly.. but given the clues,, what I think is that times were so darned tough for Fishermen and their families that they had to go where the work took them (why father James is never on his family census despite being alive until 1893) so off James and 2 of his eldest children went to try and provide

from Kinlochbervie, Sutherland, James and his son John may have decided eventually to "go home" but daughter Jane herself had nothing to lose by travelling/emigrating.. perhaps she'd already met some contacts which helped her decide to get on a ship and emigrate for a new life rather than go back, plus it was much easier to sail from the west coast where she was in 1861..

I don't know but given the Jamaican information and the "Curly" tee-name. I'd say it' not too far off base

yes, that's very plausible. I just tidied up all the Gedcom junk and replaced it with the direct link to Jamaican Family Search.

It shows that Jane's wedding was witnessed by Agnes Watt, so another piece of intrigue.
maybe Agnes was a "related contact" as inferred earlier, maybe she was acually a relation of Jane's from the West Coast (why Jane, John and dad James were even there from Banffshire?).. you do have a puzzle ;)

Hi D Anon, ref Agnes Watt, she may be Agnes Christiana Watt (married name Latham) however if she is it may throw the identity of Jane "Curly" Watt into doubt (I now see that Janes original DOB information came from the Jamaica Family History site, and possibly why the deails were even in the original GEDCOM) - while the information I've uploaded onto Jane's profile is correct for Jane "Curly" at least right up until as you say "why did she sail to Jamaica", suggestion was that she could have been sponsored by a distant family relative, that still could be true or else it's the wrong Jane!

Agnes (Watt) Latham was not yet married at the time of Jane's marriage so would have signed Agnes Watt,(she would have been about 16)  - also Peter and Ann Watt (see below) were both deceased by 1867 (they died in 1865) perhaps explaining why Agnes and not them signed.

Agnes Christiana (Watt) Latham parents are unknown, various trees have different ideas, however one possibility is that she could be the daughter, or ward?, of Peter Watt and Ann Watt (nee unknown) who both died in Westmoreland, Jamaica in 1865 (13th Sep and 9th Sep respectively) - see: FamilySearch record source (entries 144 & 145)

Jane Watt and John Dazzlewright Sangster name one of their sons Peter Watt Sangster.  and in his will John Dazzlwright Sangster bequeaths a part of his property to Agnes C Latham

To Agnes Christine Latham part of Fullerswood Park known as Clove Pond 14 acres or thereabouts for her sole use and benefit for ever.

Agnes died in 1929, and a newspaper obituary (copyright image on Ancestry?)  says she is the Aunt of Hon P.W. Sangster and C Sangster (his brother Charles?) 

This would of course suggest that Agnes is the sister of Jane, however Jane "Curly" did not have a sister named Agnes, could it be that Peter Watt is the connection/sponsor for them both? I can't find a birth for Agnes Christiana Watt, nor the Peter Watt or Ann in Scotland.

Also just another thought could it be that that's why Jane travelled, (if this is the right Jane!)  to be a Guardian of Agnes and Nurse due to the failing health of Peter and Ann Watt it would have been the right time in that 1861 - 1865 window.

Jane would have been about 10 years older than Agnes, so it's possible she became her "Aunt" in name only if this was the case (i.e. her Guardian)  

The Sangsters themselves also go back to Gamrie in Banffshire, so there could have been an older connection with the Watts and Sangsters.

In all there is no way to prove any of this, and it involves a lot of supposing, also it could well be that birth details on the JFH site for Jane are not right for John D Sangsters Jane, meaning she's not Jane "Curly" after all..  I don't know how reliable that information would be.

quite the puzzle, for sure!
 

+2 votes
OK think I've added Jane "Curly" Watts parents properly and have addded their children into their bios - so profiles need added properly

I've added a descrption about tee-names into Jane "Curly" Watts profile because while I just know they always existed (local knowledge not quite lost yet, and there is a wikipedia ref) there is no way to input them (tee-names) without an "unofficial" middle name or a preferred first name/nickname (which doesnt quite fit) this profle being a case in point, It would not have been possible to connect/source it without that tee-name (local knowledge). Without it there was a best guess scenario between 3 possible people..
by ClaireSuzy C G2G6 Mach 2 (29.9k points)
+2 votes
25 Degrees from Donald Sangster (10-7-5-4) (from my Paternal side). :)

I currently am not of the Scottish project either (lol, I think!)...but thought I'd give some input anyway... :)
by Elizabeth Hayman G2G6 Mach 5 (58.0k points)

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