Can anyone help with this brick wall? [closed]

Question

Hello, Guten Tag!

One of the brick walls, which bedeviled my late mother for decades, was the attempt to find reliable sources to verify a family story regarding Henry (Heinrich) Ginter (Günther) and his wife Louisa Ladd (Lehde). According to family legend, Henry and Louisa were from "Prussia" - my mother thought that could be narrowed down to Minden. One of their sons (Frederick, Ginter-811) became a merchant in Dearborn and married Dorothy Augusta Cowee (which created connections back to John de Bosco and established my VERY distant relationship (by marriage via my 2nd great-granduncle) with Kay Wilson!).

So... here's the question: Does anyone have an idea where I might start looking for records for a Ginter/Günther and Ladd/Lehde families? Unfortunately, they must have been born right around the time of Napoleon's invasion and only remained in Prussia after the war until sometime between the Calvinist/Lutheran religious conflicts surrounding Frederick William IIIs formation of a "United" protestant church in the 1820s and 30s. (My great-great-grand-uncle Frederick was born in Prussia 1828) and the early years of constitutional Prussia after the 1848 revolution was defeated (Frederick's eldest daughter was born in Indiana in 1859, two years after Prince William became regent). It is possible that Henry and his wife did not emigrate "officially" - which makes the search that much more difficult!

Any ideas, hints and leads would be GREATLY appreciated!

Comments

Maybe checking out our hints on How to break down your German immigrant brick wall might be an idea.

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Herzlichen Dank!

I had seen that (very valuable and well-written) resource and followed many of the suggestions therein earlier this year - see Günter-2991. It is a difficult timeframe and I hadn't yet imported the "Ginter" info from my late mother's research.

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Hello again!

I guess what I really need here is a sense of how the community in the Germany project feels about merging 

Günter-2991

with 

Ginter-820

I'm pretty confident that each profile is ok. But I'm not sure how much evidence is required before the German-based research (Günter) and the U.S.-based research (Ginter) can be determined to relate to the same person.

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Apparently they have been merged meanwhile. Good job

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yes. Thank you!

Answer 1

You might have already seen this, but here is a tree on Ancestry that seems to somewhat fit with your profile. https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/103099414/person/340034903343/facts

Perhaps some of the records found there will be helpful.

In case you don't have ancestry, here is a link for the 1824 marriage record (transcription only unfortunately) on familysearch: "Deutschland Heiraten, 1558-1929", database, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JH7P-4VW : 9 July 2021), Gerd Heinrich Guenter, 1824.

Comments

Hi "A",THANKS and welcome to WikiTree!

I do have access to ancestry -but only the US sources - I had seen most of the US sources cited there, and seen the marriage using FamilySearch. My problem is finding a really convincing proof that her husband "Gerd Heinrich Guenter" is the same person as "Garrett Henry Ginter" (or, as my family "mythology" called him "Henry G.")

I have been trying to sift through the many similar names on Ancestry and Family Search, trying to find the parents of "Henry G" and "Louisa", and confirm that they match by lining up both "Henry" and his brother "Fred". One of the grandfathers supposedly came to the US with one of Henry's brothers (and two of Henry and Louisa's sons) in 1837. The brother could have been Frederick, but I'm not certain.

Four eyes are better than two, and I sometimes get so confused by all the very similar names that I may easily miss obvious clues. If you discover anything, please let me know! (You might have a look at my research notes on Driehus-2, who is my current favorite as father of Gerd Heinrich / Garrett Henry.

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Hello GM Garrettson,

You are on the right track. Here is the source citation of an 1824 marriage record in Dielingen parish:

<ref>Archion > Westfalen: Landeskirchliches Archiv der Evang. Kirche > Kirchenkreis Lübbecke > Dielingen > Trauungen 1820-1842, Konfirmationen 1832-1898 Band 11> picture [http://www.archion.de/p/9eeb3d09d3/ 26], #11</ref>

and here its transcription:

'''Aufgebotene und Getraute im Jahr 1824'''

(Die bei einer Kirche bloß aufgebotenen und anderwärts Kopulirten Paare sollen o h n e Nummer eingetragen werden)

*Nro: 11

*Vor- und Zuname des Bräutigams: Heuerling Gerd Heinrich Günter

*Vor- und Zuname Stand und Wohnort des Vaters: Colon Joh. Heinrich Günter zu Dielingen geb. Driehus

*Alter des Bräutigams: 25 Jahre

*Ob Eltern oder Vormund die Einwilligung gegeben, und wie solches geschehen: der Vater bey dem Prediger

*Ob er schon verehelicht gewesen und wie die Ehe getrennt worden: Noch nicht

*Vor- und Zunamen der Braut: Margarethe Louise Lehde

*Namen, Stand und Wohnort des Vaters der Braut: Verstorbenen Colon Cord Heinrich Lehde

*Alter der Braut: 29 Jahre

*Ob Eltern oder Vormund die Einwilligung gegeben, und wie solches geschehen: Nicht erforderlich

*Ob sie schon verehelicht gewesen und wie die Ehe getrennt worden: Noch nicht

*Tag der Kopulation mit Buchstaben und Ziffern: fünfundzwanzigsten (25) April

*Namen des Predigers, der die Kopulation verrichtet: Helle, Dielingen

Guess this helps to ascertain the parental relationship between a ''Heuerling'' Gerd Heinrich Günter, his father Colon Johann Heinrich Günter zu Dielingen nee Driehus and Gerd Heinrich's wife Margarethe Louise Lehde and her deceased father Colon Cord Heinrich Lehde

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And here is the source for Gerd Henrich Günter's baptism record:

<ref>Archion > Westfalen: Landeskirchliches Archiv der Evang. Kirche > Kirchenkreis Lübbecke > Dielingen > Taufen 1781-1799, Trauungen 1781-1799, Beerdigungen 1781-1799, Taufen 1799, Trauungen 1799 Band 5> picture [http://www.archion.de/p/db2eb9f124/ 420], #16.</ref>

and its transcription:

'''Verzeichnis der Gebohrenen 1799'''

*Name des Orts in dem die Eltern wohnen: Dielingen

*Summa aller: 16

*Verzeichnis der Gebohrenen 1799 M(onat) Febr(uar): Dom. Reminise: den 17ten F(e)br(uar) haben die Eheleute Johann Henrich Günter geb(orener) Driehus und Marie Elisabeth Günters ein Söhnl(ein) tauffen lassen, geb(oren) den 12ten F(e)br(uar) Morg(ens) 2 Uhr, genandt Gerd Henrich. Gevat(ter) Johann Henrich Günter.

This suggests that Gerd Henrich Günter was born at 2 a.m. on 12 February 1799, son of Johann Henrich Günter nee Driehus and his wife Marie Elisabeth Günters, and that he was baptised in the (lutheran ?) church in Dielingen on 17 February 1799.

Note: Archion is a pay for play site, but you can download individual images for a fee.

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Note: This Johan Henrich Driehus does not seem to be identical with the Joan Henrich Driehus born in catholic Wallenhorst parish on 29 Nov 1785, who married on 17 November 1807, see the family card at: https://data.matricula-online.eu/de/deutschland/osnabrueck/wallenhorst-st-alexander/0055/?pg=18

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These two records should help to ascertain the relationship between Gerd Henrich Günter and Johann Henrich Günter nee Driehus and Marie Elisabeth Günter as their son.

Note the spelling of Günter is without the "h".

I am not sure, though, if this helps answer your question about whether Gerd Henrich Günter is identical to Henry (Heinrich) Ginter (Günther) and his wife Louisa Ladd (Lehde)? 

Did you find an immigration record or passenger list record?

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Hi Sven,

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!! (und außerdem vielen Dank!)

My late mother seems to have found immigration records, showing that Garrett Henry (Henry G / Gerd Heinrich) arrived in Baltimore in 1833 with Louisa Lehde/Ladd and one son. I have not yet located an online source to confirm it. The family "mythology" also relates that a "grandfather" arrived in 1837 with two other sons, and that the whole family moved to Dearborn Indiana in 1841. Still haven't found sources to verify those statements, either.  

The anglicization from "Günter" to "Ginter" makes more sense than if the original name had been "Günther" (which was more likely to have become "Gunther" on immigration). I am increasingly confident that "Gerd Heinrich Günter" (son of Colon Joh. Henrich (Driehus) Günter) and "Henry Ginter", father of John and Frederick, are the same person. I am inclined to merge the two profiles.

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Hi Sven, and thanks again!

I created a profile for Margaretha Louisa Lehde (Lehde-30) and did actually find passenger lists and immigration records online which seem to substantiate the story passed down to my late mother by her grandfather and great-granduncle. It looks like there may be some light at the end of this tunnel, after all!

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Very happy for you!

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Hi Sven,

thanks again! (This time, for the Osnabrück records). It looks to me like that Johan(n) Heinrich (I definitely see an "h", but one or two "n" are both possible). Was born in 1784 (I cannot read the exact date or the place very clearly) to Franz Driehaus and wife Regina Maria Rolf(s), married 29 April 1817 (place not clearly legible), and died on 18 May 1858 (Lechtingen?). So I would agree that he could not be the same person as Johann Henrich Driehus, born ca. 1767, married 14 Sept 1794. He also wouldn't fit as a direct ancestor or descendent. But the Driehus/Driehaus family name certainly seems worth further investigation. Maybe the two of them have a common ancestor somewhere!

EDIT: Is the Matricula online database searchable by name? or did you just "happen" to find Driehaus?

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A few Driehus' are in my one place study for Wallenhorst.

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Wallenhorst isn't far (about 30 km) from Dielingen, but it (Dielingen) was in Minden rather than Osnabrück. Wonder whether any connections can be discovered between the families...