Historical East Prussia in Russia and Lithuania Categories [closed]

Question

Hello Wikitreers,

Currently, the Poland Project is the "host project" for the historical Prussian provinces which are now located in Poland. This has worked very well for creating parallel village categories for these locations.

One of the historical province categories is East Prussia, Prussia and it's German parallel, Ostpreußen, Preußen. The modern locations for historical East Prussia are in three countries:  Poland, Russia and Lithuania.  At this time, the Russian and Lithuanian historical categories are being placed in the East Prussia, Prussia category which is managed by the Poland Project.

Since the Poland Project only manages historical categories that are in modern Poland, it doesn't make sense that the historical East Prussian categories which are now in Russia or Lithuania are in the current East Prussia, Prussia category which is managed by us.

We have come up with two possible solutions:

1. For historical East Prussian categories, now situated in Russia and Lithuania, eliminate the historical categories and use their modern locations already in these countries' category structure.

OR

2. Remove the Poland Project as host of East Prussia, Prussia (and it's German parallel) and create the following subcategories (and their German parallels) under East Prussia (and it's German parallel):

East Prussia (Poland), Prussia

East Prussia (Lithuania), Prussia

East Prussia (Russia), Prussia

The Poland Project would be the host project of East Prussia (Poland), Prussia.  The Lithuanian and Russian categories would be placed in their corresponding country's category.  We volunteer to create the Russian and Lithuanian historical East Prussian categories.  

In addition to the East Prussian categories, there are counties that would need to be created in historical Russia and Lithuania.  Some of these are shared by neighboring Poland and already cause confusion for members.  

For example, Preußisch Eylau, this county was divided between Poland and Russia. If an East Prussia (Russia), Prussia category were to be created, it would then make sense to rename the current historical category to Preußisch Eylau (Kreis) (Poland), Ostpreußen and create a Preußisch Eylau (Kreis) (Russia), Ostpreußen category which would then be placed in the East Prussia (Russia), Prussia category.  There are a few other counties that fit this scenario.  We would volunteer to create these county categories as well.

We would like to hear your suggestions and open this up for discussion.

Thank you,

Tina and Skye

Poland Project Coordinators

Comments

Also for reference, there is categorization protocol but it is only for areas within present day Poland: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Categorization_structure_for_Prussia.

We would like to make what ever anyone decides consistent with what is already set up.  German Prussia areas are obsolete as per their project protocol.

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"German Prussia areas are obsolete as per their project protocol" applies to location categories inside present day Germany. The historic location names are kept for migration categories.

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Good Day

I like the idea of the 3 categories which would be wonderfully helpful. My great grandfather was born in Muldzsen, Kreis Gerdauen, Konigsberg, East Prussia which is now Kaliningrad Oblast, Russia. The records I am looking for date from early 1800s so surely I use that place name for my search. It was not Russia at the time.

Thanks again

Charlette Hoppe Barron

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Thank you for your input Charlette! 

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Hi Tina and Skye,

I like the idea of the 3 sub-categories. Makes sense to me and will be more accurate and helpful for people. The entire subject is mind boggling, but I'm sure it will be a good decision.

Joan Szymczak

Answer 1

Dear Tina,

the Poland Project is doing an absolutely wonderful job regarding the parts that now are in Poland. Do I understand you right that you do volunteer to categorize at least some of the districts that are now in Kaliningrad Oblast? That would be so wonderful. The example of Preußisch Eylau seems a good one - with the help of GenWiki's GOV and Wikipedia everybody should be able to place single villages or towns in the right - Polish or Russian - category, and if there was anything more "downsized" than Kalinigrad Oblast in the categories this would be very helpful.

Thanks for all your work and trouble!

Heike

Comments

Thank you Heike!

Yes, the that is one of the suggestions.  However, it will depend on the results of this discussion.  Your perspective is very helpful.  

Answer 2

Hi Tina and Skye,

This is a well timed question. I am interested in the Volga Germans who settled in the historic Russian Empire Governate of Saratov.

I was aiming to ask if any Wikitreers have an interest in Russia. It also worth identifying anyone with an interest in Lithuania.

Please do not remove or rename the Kreis categories in Ostpreußen. I favour your second option that the Poland Project limits its interest to regions that are now part of present day Poland.

Thank you,

Steve

Germany Project Coordinator (Prussia) . 

Comments

Hi Steve,

The second option would rename only the kreis categories which are shared by both Poland and Russia.  The country name would need to be added so user's will know which one to select in the category widget. Also, if it isn't added, there would be two Kreis with the same name.

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Thanks Tina,
In my view this discussion is heading in a good direction. I agree with your comment about adding the country names.

Whatever Poland Project decides to do, I will maintain my interest in the Prussian Locations and Categories. I am interested to find out if any Wikitreers would like to speak for present-day Russia and Lithuania.

I like the work completed by the Poland Project. I fully support that whatever changes are made they should be consistent with the existing
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Categorization_structure_for_Prussia. 

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Thanks Steve! 

Answer 3

Hi Tina and Skye,

Thank you so much for your work in organizing categories! 

I wanted to point out that currently the Black Sea has extensive categorization using historical names in the former Russian Empire, now located in the Ukraine. It would be good to also keep this area consistent with what is decided in the discussion about Prussia. Quite a number of the German people immigrated from Prussia to the Black Sea area.

 I tend to like the historical names, it is easier for me when doing the research.  Village names are consistent with the records, I'm looking at. But then again, it would be great to have consistency between the projects. Also, Find a Grave operates with current location names. . It's a thorny question!! Thank you for tackling it. 

Carrie

Comments

Thank you so much Carrie,

100% agree. "this area consistent with what is decided in the discussion about Prussia." I acknowledge that I am very biased.

I am also interested in the Black Sea Germans: the migrants to the Bessarabia and Kherson Governates in the Russian Empire.

I prefer to use the words Governates in Russian Empire and Voivodeship in Poland. The common translation to "County" is very confusing to me. In South Australia a "County" has very different jurisdiction.   

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Thanks Carrie!  I too prefer the historical names for the same reason and since we started categorizing the historical Prussian (Poland) village categories, it's apparent many Wikitreers prefer them too.  Lot's of profiles are being added to the categories.  

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Hey Steve,

Working with developing a new Russian Empire protocol will have to happen at some time in the near future.  I am interested because it involves areas inside of present day Poland.  I deeply feel there is renaming that needs to be done (from Province to Governorate.)  That will happen in time if it is initiated by me because I'm too busy organizing other areas and teams at this time.  I'm happy to give advice/opinions if anyone wants to take this on.  

I only add this comment because with the solution of dividing East Prussia into 3 parts will tend to start the ball rolling for re-organization in the Russian and Lithuanian areas.

Since this seems to be a topic of interest, you should start a thread so we don't hijack this one. :)  Thanks for all you do Steve!

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Cheers Skye,
I agree with your comments - particularly dividing East Prussia into 3 parts to align with modern countries.

Some of my profiles extend back into the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The second official language was Latin - also I have studied Latin, very little German, 0 Polish. Have you seen any civil or church records that use Latin?

I will not be doing much in August, however I will start a new thread.

Answer 4

I vote for option 2. My grandmother was from Kreis Heydekrug, East Prussia, which was absorbed into Lithuania after WWI. It has no connection to modern Poland; it was part of the original kingdom of Prussia.

Comments

Thank you Melinda, appreciate your input. 

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Hi Melinda,

I am very ignorant about Lithuania. Skye and Tina have asked an excellent question and I will respond. Would you like to join the Prussia Team of the Germany Project?
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Prussia_Team

I am going to need a lot of help connecting locations with categories in Wikitree.

Steve.

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I am by no mean knowledgeable in Lithuania, but I do feel strongly about classifying East Prussia properly. I am willing to help where I can. I probably shouldn't mention I have an MA in German history but I've forgotten most of it! 3 of my 4 grandparents are German (or 1/2 Swiss), immigrated to the US between 1907 and 1912,  my genealogy skills are advanced intermediate, my German is weak but I can find my way around German church records.

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Thanks,
I agree with you. You should not have mentioned MA in German history. That invites a lot of interest.
I am busy right now, however I imagine tackling this question more seriously from the start of September.

Answer 5

Since there appears to be positive feedback and interest in suggestion #2, I went ahead and prepared a list of the Kreis categories that will need to be created and those that need to be renamed.  If there are any corrections or additions to this list, please reply to this answer.  This does not mean suggestion #2 is certain, we will still need to submit it to G2G for a vote.

Create:
 

Kaliningrad Oblast

Darkehman (Kreis) (Russia), Ostpreußen

Friedland (Kreis) (Russia), Ostpreußen

Gerdauen (Kreis) (Russia), Ostpreußen

Gumbinnen (Kreis), Ostpreußen

Heiligenbeil (Kreis) (Russia), Ostpreußen

Insterburg (Kreis), Ostpreußen

Königsberg (Kreis), Ostpreußen

Labiau (Kreis), Ostpreußen

Pillkallen (Kreis), Ostpreußen

Preußisch Eylau (Kreis) (Russia), Ostpreußen

Ragnit (Kreis), Ostpreußen

Samland (Kreis), Ostpreußen

Stallupönen (Kreis), Ostpreußen

Tilsit (Kreis), Ostpreußen

Wehlau (Kreis), Ostpreußen

Goldap (Kreis) (Russia), Ostpreußen

Lithuania

Heydekrug (Kreis), Ostpreußen

Memel (Kreis), Ostpreußen
 

Rename:
 

Darkehman (Kreis) (Poland), Ostpreußen

Friedland (Kreis) (Poland), Ostpreußen

Gerdauen (Kreis) (Poland), Ostpreußen

Goldap (Kreis) (Poland), Ostpreußen

Heiligenbeil (Kreis) (Poland), Ostpreußen

Preußisch Eylau (Kreis) (Poland), Ostpreußen

 

Comments

Nice work Tina!!!

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You're the BEST!

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Thank you!

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Yay! thank you

Answer 6

I'm asking myself why the county categories need to be split at all? Why not have one category per district with village categories in them that either aka to a Polish present day category, to a Russian one or a Lithuanian one?

I mean: where is the point in having historical categories, if we then split them up to reflect present-day structures?

Comments

But what's the effort? Schmoditten => German Wikipedia => https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rjabinowka_(Kaliningrad,_Bagrationowsk) => "something with Kaliningrad, so probably Russia"

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They aren't always this simple.

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Florian, what is the issue with adding the country name to six Kreis categories if it lessens the work load for us and allows members to place their profiles in the correct East Prussian kreis instead of the modern Russian and Lithuanian category?

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Somehow I perceive it simply "wrong" to add the country to the historical district name, just to have a marker in the category report, but I guess I could survive it ... but splitting a category for it really feels a bit arbitrary.

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I don't think it's "arbitrary", but helpful for us who create the villages and for members who place their profiles in an East Prussian Kreis currently Poland.  Especially when I end up removing the profile from the Poland East Prussia Kreis category and tell them it is for the Poland location and their profile belongs in Kaliningrad, Oblast.

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Maybe it's the language that bugs me. "Preußisch Eylau (Kreis) (Russia), Ostpreußen" is a weird mixture of German and English.

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That is an easy fix, and I agree it should be changed on the German parallel to the German words for Russia and Poland, which are Russland or Rußland and Polen correct? And keep Russia and Poland for the English parallel.  That was my mistake, I should have written it that way to begin with.

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Thanks all - the mixture of languages was one thing that struck me as odd - changing to Rußland and Polen works for me.

The other was the strange feature of adding present day identification in a historic place name. I was wondering whether it was worth adding a unique feature like square brackets Darkehman (Kreis) [Russia], Ostpreußen or an extra note Darkehman (Kreis) (now: Russia), Ostpreußen to highlight that the 6 shared kreis categories are very rare exceptions to the normal category structure.

I acknowledge the huge amount of work that Skye and Tina are doing and hope a solution can be found. I do not want to eliminate any of the Kreis categories now in modern Russia and Lithuania.

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Thanks Steve, here are the rules for naming categories:

"The only allowed characters are letters, numbers, spaces, commas, dots, hyphens (only the normal one but not wide), single quotation marks (as apostrophe but do not use apostrophe) and parentheses (in pair). There is a colon in the file name but it must be used only following "Category:". Although quotation marks and ampersands are often used for names in Wikipedia and at Find A Grave, neither can be used on WikiTree. Spaces may be used (they become underscores when saved). Non-Latin alphabets are fine but still stick to characters and numbers."

So [ ] or : can't be used.  However, we could add (now in Russia) and (now in Poland) and the German equivalent on the parallel.  

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I looked up the spelling, Russland is the correct spelling after 1996.  Pre-1996 spelling was Rußland.

Answer 7

The work done by the Polish project on East Prussian categories and how they link to modern-day locations is magnificent and so super-helpful!

From my perspective, it feels somewhat artificial to split up the names of the East Prussian categories and add the names of present-day countries to them.

I would prefer if we left East Prussia as simply East Prussia (and not create East Prussia (Poland), East Prussia (Lithuania) etc).

Instead the category page would benefit from a description of how the territory was later split and when and which country it now belongs to (similar to what you have already done in the post below, but rather

Kaliningrad Oblast

Kreis Darkehman, Ostpreußen (now divided between Russia and Poland)

Kreis Heydekrug, Ospreußen (now Lithuania)

and then within Kreis Darkehman, Ostpreußen

The East Prussian Kreis Darkehman is now split between Russia and Poland (add more information about historical context ...).

The following villages are now part of Russia:

*Village 1

*Village 2

*Village 3

The following villages are now part of Poland:

*Village A

*Village B

*Village C

(And even some villages have been split between Russia and Poland) [only if that case exists.

I hope this suggestion does not add too much additional work.

Sven

Comments

Thanks for the invitation but I'm pretty busy with what I do now thanks. I have an interest in Prussia but am not located in Poland and do not speak or read Polish. It follows, I do not see that I am qualified to be a member of the Polish project.

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Susan, I don't speak or read Polish either.

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Sven, see Skye's reply.

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Hello Sven, I think we commented at the same time.  Please review mine as it answers your questions.

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Heike, totally agree on your sentiment about the great work the team is doing to maintain / create these categories for East Prussia. Some of my East Prussian ancestors were from places I have only read in a German language churchbook, but the place name was all but unique. In my Familytree Maker / Ancestry tree I had actually made substantial mistakes about the village, because I did not pick the correct one. So this structure actually helped me a lot to understand where they lived!  Maybe one day, I get to visit that part of Poland. It is still on my bucket list.

Sven

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Tina, I realise that.

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Hi Skye,

Yes, our answers overlapped. My proposal would allow the Poland project to manage the categories in East Prussia for Poland, including for Kreise which are now partially located in other territories - but only on the Kreis level. My suggestion was that the Kreis be retained as managed by the Poland project, and the villages in Lithuania or Russia be managed by someone else.

The original question was whether we wanted to split the Kreis categories. I would still prefer not to split e.g. Kreis Darkehmen into two separate categories, as it would get more difficult to find ancestors that moved between parishes or neighbouring villages (that are now in different countries) within that Kreis. A division in the category structure would make that more difficult, and the people at the time would not have thought of it in that way.

I do totally get your point about workload, but my suggestion was designed to not put more workload onto your shoulders. I only feel that this separation would be one that is artificial. Again, thank you for the great work you have done in this area!

Sven

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Sven,

Our reason for wanting to split the Kreis was addressed in my reply above to Florian.  Please see my reply.

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Sven,

Realistically when the user does not know which country, they take the least path of resistance and nest it in which ever kreis appears first, and therefore we are forced to handle it/move it anyway.  If in Poland, a village is created.

I don't think it would deter anyone from using the category.  We see this happen all over categories for Poland (ex. nesting a profile in a powiat that was from Russian Empire, but it actually situated in a different present day powiat.)

Your concern is it would be difficult for you to find the village in the same kreis?  We can hyperlink the other Kreis/countries.

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Hi Skye, hi Tina,

if a village category does not exist, of course people should link the profile to the Kreis. That is why the Kreis exists. Why would you want to deter someone from putting a person in the correct East Prussian Kreis if the appropriate village does not exist?

Again: my proposal was designed to overcome the issue of artificially splitting a historic entity only because the management structure or the workload share between teams in Wikitree requires it.

Neither of your responses have provided a counter argument as to why my design would be inferior.

The workload remains the same. Someone will have to create the village categories below those Kreis categories.

In my view, if you artificially split the East Prussian Kreis, you might lose people’s support and willingness to help build the structure below it.

It would be like splitting the Prince-Bishopric of Osnabrück into two parts because one part was in modern Northrhine- Westphalia (Amt Reckenberg) and the rest in Lower Saxony. One also would not split the category for the First French Empire (if that category existed) into First French Empire (France), First French Empire (Germany), First French Empire (Italy), just because we had different teams looking after the modern day category.

Sven

Answer 8

Just an FYI that we appreciate all the feed back, concerns and discussion this topic has warranted.  This allows us to make sure that what we want to do is solid before moving forward.

If Russia (not Russian Empire) or Lithuania begin a project, we are happy to provide any information that would be of value to them as we work together on the same region in order to maintain consistency.

Answer 9

Like I said, I don't like the idea of splitting up historical location categories to current-day structures because that basically makes the historical categories absurd. But I understand that having those districts in your category report is annoying from a Poland Project point of view. So how about a more technical approach:

I wrote a bookmarklet that makes all non-polish Kreis links italic and all shared ones have have small caps if you click it while you are on any page that has links containing their name (e.g. category report, top level category etc.)

There would be also means to include this in your default view without having to click it every time.

Comments

Thank you for taking the time to write the Bookmarklet.  The kreis list you have shared would need to be discussed further.  The list I posted definitely has the six Kreis that are currently shared with modern Russia, and modern Poland does not share any Kreis with modern Lithuania.   

I installed the Bookmarklet you wrote, and it does work to identify non-Poland Kreis, however identifying the shared Kreis doesn't really provide any help since we still will have to identify if the profiles belong to modern Poland or modern Russia and then move them out of the Kreis to modern Kaliningrad Oblast since the current Kreis is under the Poland Project.

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But why don't you just create a village category underneath the Kreis category for those and you're done?

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We are creating villages for Poland.  But what should we do with the Russian profiles?

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Create a German language Ostpreußen village category and move them there without an aka?

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That is additional work for us and isn't in the scope of the category protocol that Skye referred to above.

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How about the Germany Project supporting you on these shared counties? We could add them to our category monitoring on Discord and would instantly see if there are new profiles, once there is new category data on WT+

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Please elaborate what "support" includes. Will the Germany project be creating the historical East Prussian Russian village categories the same way the historical Polish village categories are created?  If not, I think it would be odd to have a Kreis with two protocols, one for East Prussian Polish villages and another for the Russian profiles without the village, but both in the same kreis.  It would make it harder for us and confusing for members wondering why some have villages and others not. Separating the Kreis is more logical and beneficial. Or place them in the modern location currently available.

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Can't speak for the others so far, but I would add an ", Ostpreußen" category and in the end then also creating a Russian/Lithuanian aka category should not be a big thing. On the other hand, I think it would also be sufficient, to put them in the Ostpreußen village category only, for the moment, until somebody does something with Russia. I expect people to rather search for Ostpreußen anyway than for Russian place names.

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I was thinking the same way that when required a village will be added in a German category. I imagine a similar appearance to the Poland examples, however not an Aka in Russian - certainly not in Cyrillic script. I do not think that it would be very odd to have slightly different protocols in the Polish side and Russian. Adding Russian might be a long term objective but not urgent.

Answer 10

OK, new approach after thinking a bit more:

What about leaving the common Ostpreußen-Kreis categories as are, but adding inside of them two categories like "Darkehman (Kreis, heute polnischer Teil), Ostpreußen" and "Darkehman (Kreis, heute russischer Teil), Ostpreußen"?

And please also put Category: Königsberg (Kreis), Ostpreußen (and any others I didn't see so far) back into the Ostpreußen category - we can't simply omit them just because they're uncomfortable!

Comments

Thanks for putting Königsberg back meanwhile, Tina.