Data Doctors: Improving the surname listing of profiles.

Question

If Mary Brown marries John Smith, in genealogical referencing we refer to her as Mary (Brown) Smith.  The surname in parenthisis is her maiden name and Smith is her married name.  If she later marries Tom Jones.  She becomes Mary (Brown) (Smith) Jones.  Smith now being her 1st husband and Jones being her current last name.  Following the rule (Maiden Surname) (First Husband Surname) Last husband surname.

I now have a situation where Eliza Ann Kelley married Wylie Kelley.  Thus she should be listed as Eliza Ann (Kelley) Kelley.  This tells me that she married a man whose surname is Kelley.

However, currently WikiTree assumes that if the surname of the person (WikiTree-ID) is the same as current last name, then she will be listed as Eliza Ann Kelley.  As she is currently when looking at her father's profile.   Notice that her sisters all follow the rule but not her.

I propose that the Current Last name should be left blank if not married and should follow the rule if married.

Thanks for the consideration, maybe I am missing something here.

Comments

Hi Michael. Marriage is not the only reason why current last name (at death) can be different from last name at birth. People including men change the spelling or the substance of their last names quite often.

So I think your interesting proposal could be reworded, to say: The current last name should be left blank if it is the same as the last name at birth, except in the case (for modern Western cultures) when a woman's last husband is a man whose surname is the same as her last name at birth, in which case it should be entered as that name.

The "modern Western cultures" condition may need more work. In many past cultures and some now, women's last names on marriage remain unchanged.

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I have seen where some would have her name as  Eliza Ann (Kelley) married Kelley.

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Jim, yes, my Smith Alexander Stllls was born Ricker.   Thus he would be Smith Alexander (Ricker) Stills.  And this works currently as the surnames are different.  It is only a problem in the unsusal situation when they are exactly the same.

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Aaron, and it is sometimes shown as Eliza Ann Kelley née Kelley.  I am speaking of the funtionally as it exists on WikiTree.

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Jim, I am speaking only of the current funtionality of the system.  One specific instance in a rare situtation when the surname is exact.

But yes,

There have been many discussions on changing the way WikiTree tree handles a person's name, surnames, patronymics, dit surnames, and many other cultural examples.  

The recent changes to allow for removal of the Middle Name field is one example of that change.

But, if you read those dicussions it opens a whole can of worms.  Just like the place names discussions.

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Simplify life: only use maiden names in genealogy.

(Keep in mind that changing a married woman's surname -- and only a married woman's surname -- is not universal.)

Answer 1

Try placing Kelley in other last name field

Other Last Name(s): Kelley

Comments

Yes, but that is a work around.  It does not correct the appearance elsewhere on WikiTree.

Answer 2

This happened in my family to a number of women. I understand your frustration. However, the data boxes only give a brief summary which helps immensely for searching. Your biography needs to explain she's still Kelley.

And as stated by others, there are tons of times when the lnab and current last name are different for both men and women.

Comments

Explainations in the bio are always appropriate.  (Her profile is currently under development)

But the functionality of the Current Last Name box actually changes if the surname is exact.  It works correctly if the surname is different.  I am just proposing that it work the same so that it shows up appropriately elsewhere in WikiTree.

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So possibly, if a person is married and the current last name and the lnab are the same, show on the profile i.e. Eliza Kelley formerly Kelley. 

Another case would be a divorce where the person has reverted to the lnab and then the other last name would show as  i.e. Ada Armstrong aka Leffler formerly Armstrong.

I do know men who changed their last names to their wive's lnab and this would also work for them, I think.  I'm presuming one doesn't need this unless one knows the person was married.

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I don't disagree, I have simular situations.  

My Smith Alexander Stills born Ricker works just fine.  He shows as Smith Alexander (Ricker) Stills.  

It is only a problem when the surname is exact that the function changes and does not include the maiden name (name at birth is more correct perhaps).  If I change Kelley to Kelly for example, it shows up as Eliza Ann (Kelly) Kelley. But when the surnames are exact it shows up as Eliza Ann Kelley.

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I know we're talking about the same issue/problem. I think what we're seeing has nothing to do with the current last name field being left blank and everything to do with how the name of the person is displayed.  And, that, as you proposed, is what needs changing -- how the name is displayed.  I would suggest asking in G2G in WikiTree Tech -- and see if someone can weigh in on how difficult or easy the software change might be, also.

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"Eliza Kelley formerly Kelley" isn't accurate though. She wasn't formerly a Kelley, she still is a Kelley. Her name is still the same.

You are assigning meaning to the name display that it doesn't have. The way the Current Last Name is displayed is not supposed to give any information about a marriage -- it's just the name the person currently has or died with. The name change could have been from something other than a marriage, such as changing it after immigration.

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@Jamie:  Thanks. As I suspected, I wasn't thinking about this correctly.  So, we were trying to take what works and make specific cases where we'd like to see something else.  Trees and forests.

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So Jamie, if I look on her father's page, https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Kelley-278

I see her sisters:

Mary (Kelley) Reynolds for example.

You say (Kelley) is her Last Name a Birth and Reynolds is her Current Last Name.  The same for all her sisters.

The the formula is (LNAB) CLN.

If the program pulls LNAB into the () then addes CLN, the LNAB = Kelley and CLN = Kelley would be (Kelley) Kelley but we do not get that.  

Or if LNAB (not =) CLN, Then (LNAB) CLN

There must be a comparision going on?

If LNAB = CLN, then produce (which? CLN or LNAB)

Also, I propose that while the spelling is the same, they are not identical.  I get your meaning but that is not was is being produced.

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To add my thought, your suggestion could be worded something like:

I propose that the Current Last name should be left blank unless there has been an event that changed it from LNAB.

The current functionality is that when a profile is created, LNAB is copied into the CLN field, if left blank. Therefore, the code needs to compare the 2 values and if there is the same string of characters, assume that there have been no changes. i.e. most Western males, have CLN and LNAB the same due to not changing it when marrying. It would be incorrect to display my name as David (Weinberg) Weinberg. One way to display a woman that married a man with the same last name would be to leave CLN blank unless it has changed.

This would require a major change to the existing WikiTree profile data. To implement this suggestion, all profiles with CLN and LNAB the same would need to be assessed to determine if the CLN should be removed. To do this automatically would potentially create the reverse of the current situation. Eliza Kelley would have her CLN removed and would still display her as Eliza Kelley rather than Eliza (Kelley) Kelley.

Blank CLN by default, would also require changing every time the value of CLN is used, to add code to conditionally use the value of LNAB if CLB is blank. 

Alternatively, there could be logic introduced to the code to establish if a life event took place to justify Kelley and Kelley not being the same, for example, if there is a spouse. But as has been mentioned, not in all cultures does a last name change following marriage. For example, Spanish female, María del Carmen Barrenechea Montegui kept her last name and it would be incorrect to display her as María del Carmen (Barrenechea Montegui) Barrenechea Montegui even though she has a spouse.