Seeking Research Help - Taylors of Wapping, Middlesex (not Essex)

Question

In my ongoing research into brick walls on my husband's side of the family, I'm hoping to leap the pond from Richard Taylor of Sudbury, Massachusetts and who married in 1676/7 Hannah Rice, back to his (or his parents') English origins.

I detailed the research problem a few years back [https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/206096/who-was-richard-taylor-of-sudbury-1650-1694 here].

A branch of research I'm exploring concerns a Taylor family in Wapping, Essex, Middlesex, England, who in the 1660s had children that used given names similar to names Richard used for his own children a generation later-- namely Caleb and Jonathan. These and other given names used by Sudbury Richard appear in a will abstracted here: NEHGS Register 49 (1895): 126.

I realize this is a stretch, but researching family given names has helped me break down brick walls in the past. Here's to ongoing hope... But I have minimal experience researching England-based records.

I have never been able to find the parentage of the above-mentioned Richard Taylor.  He's likely a son of an immigrant or he may have been a post PGM immigrant himself. I've mostly exhausted (I believe) options on the Massachusetts side; and am seeking research help for exploring this Wapping possibility.

(NOTE: I am not seeking information about Richard's life in Massachusetts or his descendants; I've got that covered. I'm seeking his ancestry.)

Many many thanks to researchers familiar with colonial-era records in England.

Comments

This seems to be the link to the Will you mention https://archive.org/details/newenglandhisto30unkngoog/page/126/mode/2up  but I don't see any reference to a Richard.

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Correct, Lois.  As I mentioned, the family drew my attention Because while there was not a Richard, there was a set of siblings with names that Richard later used in his own family. I'm seeking to look at additional records from Wapping and adjacent towns to see if I might, with the help of others, find a link to Richard.

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It would be helpful if you could provide a link to the sources you've found for this English family of Taylors. I doubt if they could be in Wapping, Essex, as I believe Wapping was then in Middlesex.

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I find that in 1661 Caleb Taylor was apprenticed as a mercer to a Robert Williams  https://www.londonroll.org/event/?company=mrc&event_id=MCEB956

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Lois, that's what I'm looking for, based on that probate record published in the NEHGR. That's the point of my g2g request. I'm seeking help finding other Wapping records.

I might have the Essex part wrong.

Thanks for the Caleb find.

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I see why I got confused about Essex. The first testator, Thomas Taylor, had property in Essex, but yes, Wapping is in Middlesex.

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He also had property in Norfolk, which, if you read his actual Will https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D778822  seems to be a good bet as to the original place of this family. He speaks of "the custom of the manor" there, which is the sort of detail a native of the place would know. The Will insists that elder son Jonathan relinquish that property to younger son Caleb, according to the custom, and in exchange Thomas will give him the greater inheritance.

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Good catch, Lois! You're awesome... So... what records are available from there?

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Have not seen any yet.

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This is interesting:  Norfolk : Wighton : All Saints : Parish Register : "Parish Register" database, FreeREG (https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5818ad25e93790ec757da05d : viewed 16 Nov 2022) burial Richard Tylar 10 Feb 1558/59

County	Norfolk
Place (Links to more information)	Wighton
Church name (Links to more information)	All Saints
Register type (Links to more information)	Parish Register
Burial date	10 Feb 1558/59
Burial person forename	Richard
Burial person surname	TYLAR
Notes	The pastor (shepherd) of Martin Hastyngs gentleman
Transcribed by	Stuart Tokely

Otherwise, there were a good number of Taylors in Wighton, largely the children of a William & Elizabeth.

The parish register of Wighton, happily a transcription and thus readable:  https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FNORFOLK%2FPD_553-1%2F00363&parentid=GBPRS%2FNORFOLK%2FBUR%2F002901025

Visible at Ancestry

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Here's a Richard Taylor buried at Southwark, the same year.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1624/images/31280_198835-00028?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Fdd2016&_phstart=successSource&pId=4089645

Southwark, I will point out, is right across the river on the south side of London Bridge

Another, in London 1557  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1624/images/31281_a102088-00142?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Fdd2019&_phstart=successSource&pId=7728281

Answer 1

I note in his profile that Hanserd Knollys, schoolmaster of Caleb Taylor was apparently an Anabaptist. Near the end of Thomas Taylor's Will, he mentions his membership in the "Church of Christ" in Wapping. That does not seem to be the name of a church of the Established Church. I think it may have been an Anabaptist congregation, which would make it hard to locate records from.

Answer 2

There’s this as well

First name(s) Caleb

Last name Taylor

Apprentice year 1631

Livery company Grocer

Details Taylor Francis son of Caleb, Godalming, Surrey, clerk to James Clarke 22 Jun 1631, Grocers' Company

Birth county Surrey

Birth country England

Record set London Apprenticeship Abstracts, 1442-1850

Category Education & work

Subcategory Apprentices

Collections from Great Britain, England

Comments

Thanks. This is yet another Taylor family in a different part of England, with a son Caleb. And it appears it's a previous generation to the Caleb, son of Thomas of Wapping.

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For Surrey, there is this one:  https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=4790&h=745390&tid=&pid=&queryId=9b48b69692c455292d955b807a253c30&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Fdd1995&_phstart=successSource  baptism 1577, father Francis

Here https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/4790/images/40761_312032-00021?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=9b48b69692c455292d955b807a253c30&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Fdd1995&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=745390  is a very unusual but quite legible image of the parish register of Guildford, Holy Trinity, Surrey. Paging through this is the best way to find other records of the particular family.

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I don't see any other Calebs, Jonathans or Thomases there, and not another appearance of that  Francis. Quite likely a dead end.

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Lois, thank you! Dead ends are valuable, too. Identifies what we DO NOT need to research further...

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Could this conceivably be the "cosen Caleb Taylor" mentioned in the Will of John Taylor?

Answer 3

Could this be related to him

First name(s) John

Last name Tailor

Birth year 1658

Birth date 23 February 1658

Baptism year -

Address New Staires

Father's first name(s) Nathaniell

Father's occupation Carver

Mother's first name(s) Mary

Parish St John, Wapping

Church address Wapping

County Middlesex

Country England

Record set London, Docklands And East End Baptisms

Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

Subcategory Parish Baptisms

Collections from England, Great Britain

Comments

This one maybe?

First name(s) Richard

Last name Taillor

Birth year 1642

Baptism year 1642

Baptism date 15 May 1642

Address Old Gravel Lane

Father's first name(s) Anthonie

Mother's first name(s) [illegible]

Parish St John, Wapping

Church address Wapping

County Middlesex

Country England

Record set London, Docklands And East End Baptisms

Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

Subcategory Parish Baptisms

Collections from England, Great Britain

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Thanks, Ann. Much appreciated.

Do you know if there are other Wapping probate records available somewhere?

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I’ll look today but a quick glance didn’t reveal anything. Ancestry have London wills and PCC.

Ann

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How about Wapping marriage records?

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For those you need parish registers. For that, you need to locate the parish. St Mary Whitechapel was a large parish in that area. John Taylor was known to be of that parish

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http://www.marinelives.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Junior

http://www.marinelives.org/wiki/Shipwright

https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_crewman&id=23217

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Loyal_London_(1666)

Master shipwrights: John Graves, John Dearsly, Edward Steevens, John Taylor, William Burch. https://www.british-history.ac.uk/london-record-soc/vol19/pp78-90  This would be the senior John, or possibly HIS father, if he was of such seniority at that early date of 1627

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00253359.1929.10655496?journalCode=rmir20

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You got there before me Lois, I was going to suggest a marine connection as they were from Wapping.

Ann

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These guys, esp John, were VERY prominent master shipwrights. John worked with Peter Pett.  He had his own shipyard in Wapping.

They don't either of them seem to have profiles on WT. Unless Taylor-5598 is supposed to be him, on the basis of the first wife of Francis Willoughby.  Although apparently the daughter of John Taylor who married Willoughby was Sarah - although it could have been both in succession.

Anywayhow, if the profile is correct, he came from Sussex.

I've adopted the profile of Taylor-5598 on the supposition that he might turn out to be the right person.

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No wills?

Ann

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The Taylors? They definitely have nice long Wills.

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Lois and Ann, thank you so much for all you're doing. Not sure I'm any closer, but the compilation of all this information should be helpful to more than me.

Answer 4

This, I believe may be the marriage of Jonathan son of Thomas Taylor, at sea on a voyage to the East Indies when Thomas wrote his Will in 1658.

First name(s)	Jonathan
Spouse's last name	Haselwood
Last name	Taylor
County	Middlesex
Marriage year	1652
Country	England
Marriage date	27 Nov 1652
Record set	Greater London Marriage Index
Marriage place	Stepney, St Dunstan
Category	Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Occupation	Mariner
Subcategory	Parish Marriages
Spouse's first name(s)	Elizabeth
Collections from	England, Great Britain

Which brings up a matter:  The abstract of Thomas's Will misleadingly suggests that Jonathan's daughter Elizabeth (likely named after her mother) was age 21.  This is not the case. If you look at Thomas's actual Will, https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D778822 it says that Thomas leaves a bequest to his son's daughter Elizabeth, to be paid to her at age 21. She might well have been 6 years old at the time the Will was dated. To suppose she was 21 is to push the dates for her father, grandfather, and great-grandfather back to an unreasonable point and distort the lineage.

Thomas's son Caleb appears to be the youngest child, and if the apprenticeship in 1661 is for him, would have probably been born about 1647. This looks like 4 daughters and 2 sons born say between 1635 and 1647, putting the birth of Thomas and brother John (probably the elder) in the first decade of the century, and their father (John Senior) around 1580 or 90 or so. A 21-year-old Elizabeth in 1658 makes for a less likely timeline.

Comments

This is great sleuthing! Thank you, Lois.

Answer 5

Here http://ppolinks.com/athenaeum/s0927f1.pdf  is a tantalizing but tenuous connection:  John Taylor the mast contractor in 1690 was likely the son or grandson of the John Taylor under discussion here.  The Piscataqua River where he set up an operation was the same location where, earlier, Caleb Taylor's schoolmaster, Hanserd Knollys, served in his New England ministry before returning to England.

Answer 6

Family Search has the parish record of Frant, Sussex, https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6PCZ-7HN?mode=g&cc=1465706  with a number of Richards:  b. 1577, son of Nicholas; m. 1616 Elizabeth Burger; daughter Sarah 1618; son Richard 1621

No Jonathans or Calebs.  A Thomas and a John, but they aren't brothers.  As Richards are not a common name for Taylors, the Richard son of Richard could conceivably be the father or uncle of the Massachusetts Richard.

Comments

Thank you, Lois, I'm appreciating all you're doing here.

So, you've made a finding that I did not before have which is "As Richards are not a common name for Taylors..."

That is interesting. I did not know that before.

I wish I could tie "my" Richard (of Sudbury, MA) to some sort of occupation. He was in the military during King Philip's war, and appears to have made a career of it; he is referred to in later records by his military title.  He did serve as a constable.

The only thing I've been able to find as unique are those two sons-- Jonathan and Caleb... which had not appeared in the Rice line (Richard's wife was a Rice) which makes me think they were from Richard's upline.

CORRECTION: Richard's wife, Hannah (b Rice) had a brother named Jonathan. Sigh.

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I should say - of the various Taylor families I've seen, Richards have been relatively uncommon.  There are likely other families where they are more likely to occur.

Ann Browning said she saw a Will with a Richard witnessing, but I haven't seen it.

I am, in fact, in pursuit of John and Thomas the shipwrights, doing the profile for John and will add one for Thomas. But one still runs into a stray Richard.

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I wonder if Ann is referring to some English Whelden document where a Richard Taylor is a witness to or otherwise mentioned?  I remember seeing that years ago when I was researching my Richard Taylors of Yarmouth article.  But I've seen no connection between the Richard Taylors of Yarmouth and Richard of Sudbury (contrary to the Hoar collection which got it WRONG).  

Amusingly, while Richard Taylors may be rare(r) in England, there were a slew of them (genealogically speaking) in colonial New England and Virginia.

Answer 7

Here is something of interest:  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1624/images/31280_194793-00177?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Fdd2114&_phstart=successSource&pId=3505077  On 3 November 1616, a Richard Tayler of Limehouse (occupation too squiggly to be "shipwright) and his wife Allyra baptised their son John at Stepney St Dunstan's.

Comments

That Allyra being an uncommon name, I looked it up - both the other husbands of Allyras were Edwards.