Many of the Ontario Place Name Conventions are wrong.

Question

Most of both my Birth ancestors and my Adoptive ancestors hail from Simcoe County Ontario so I use a lot of Simcoe place names. eg: Barrie, Vespra Twp, Simcoe Co., Ontario, Canada.

The place name conventions suggest either:

Barrie, Vespra, Simcoe, Canada West (1841 - 1867) Obviously wrong after 1867...   OR,

Barrie, Simcoe, Norfolk, Ontario, Canada (1867-)

The city of Barrie, is NOT in the city of Simcoe, Norfolk County, Ontario, near Lake Erie.

The city of Barrie, is (north) half in Vespra Twp, (Springwater Twp. since 1994)  (south) half in Innisfil Twp.

Barrie was solely is Vespra in 1879, 1889. According to Old Maps Online https://www.oldmapsonline.org/map/rumsey/4520.009

I am not sure when (after 1994) but it now appears that the city of Barrie, is on it's own apart from either Township.

MANY Simcoe towns and cities suffer from this misdirection to the wrong part of the province.

I would suggest Barrie be removed from Barrie, Simcoe, Norfolk, Ontario, Canada (1867-), and Barrie, Vespra Twp, Simcoe Co., Ontario, Canada (1867-1994) be added.

edit - changed tag from naming_conventions to place_names

Comments

Oh Tim, I have gone around and around with the Simcoe county and Simcoe the town. .The simplest way to cope with any of these problems is to enter the place names yourself, don't go with most of the drop downs, unless it something like using United States correctly, only after 1776. 

Or country of Canada only after 1867. 

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But that is not any help to the newbies who might assume the drop-downs are going to be correct.

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Yes, I agree however there is information on this page, https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Location_Fields#Automatic_Place_Name_Suggestions

Automatic Place Name Suggestions

WikiTree utilizes FamilySearch's Place Research database to make suggestions for location names based on what you type.

You will see a pin icon map.gif next to suggestions. If you click it, you'll be taken to the research details page at FamilySearch for the location. This may be necessary to see the years in which the place name was valid.

You do not need to accept any of the place name suggestions. They may not be the ideal way to record the place name on WikiTree. See our style rules above. In particular, the suggestions may not be in the person's own language. See the Language Selection page for more explanation.

Answer 1

Family Search:  How do I suggest a new place to FamilySearch Places?  https://www.familysearch.org/en/help/helpcenter/article/how-do-i-request-a-new-place-in-the-database-of-standardized-places

I made a request for a change.

Comments

Tim, in my experience with FS and place names, they really aren't interested, there are 2 standard answers I have received when asking for something to be corrected.

1. If the complete place name is not already in our database we won't, don't use other names.

2. When suggesting that a place name is incorrect as in  mistranscribed or the place did not exist at the time, the answer is 'our people transcribed it that way and we aren't going to change it'. Yes we acknowledge that your family member may have lived in the place you call ...but that's not what we call it.

But go ahead and try it Tim , I'll be thrilled if you have even a modest degree of success.

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Ya, that is about what I am expecting...

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Hi Tim,

Did you get a response?

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No, not yet anyway...

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I finally got a response!!! Although they made it sound like they were correcting me, while agreeing that the place indicated by them was not what they called it... and I quote RE. Vespra Township, Norfolk, Ontario, Canada

 "Dear Tim: 

Vespra Township, Simcoe, Norfolk, Ontario is Place ID # 8172072 and is a former township.  You can see the timelines for Vespra at the following link: 

https://www.familysearch.org/research/places/?focusedId=8172072

 

Thank you for your interest in improving FamilySearch Places. 

 

Best Regards, 

 

Authorities Team" 

Anyway,  Simcoe Co. is in the dropdowns here now!

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Congratulations, you got a response!

What are they saying is the improved location? On the map on the link they provided, they still have Vespra, Simcoe, Norfolk, Ontario, Canada, Township, 1867 - Today. This is still wrong.

The town of Simcoe in Norfolk County is on the north coast of Lake Erie, Vespra is now and has always been in Simcoe County and the 2 places are still 250km apart. And I know you know this.

I believe what they have added is Vespra, Simcoe, Canada West, British Colonial America, Township, 1841 - 1867, this is correct; except that British Colonial America as a location is a made up name and never existed, 

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OMG! I was so happy to see Vespra Township added to that place pin, with the Note: Vespra is a former township in central Simcoe County in Ontario, Canada.  that I compleatly flaked on the fact that Norfolk was still in the name!!! I'll try again!

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Tim said' I'll try again", I said

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Thank You!!!

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I think the finally got it right...

Dear Tim Harbinson: 

Vespra, Simcoe, Ontario, Canada has been updated.  Vespra Township is shown as an alternate name for Vespra and is searchable with that name as well as Vespra.  We hope this clears up any confusion.  You can see the updated Place at the following link: 

https://www.familysearch.org/research/places/?focusedId=8172072  

Thank you for your interest in improving FamilySearch Places. 

 

Best Regards, 

 

Authorities Team 

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Well done!

This is quite inspiring.

I just might have a second try or maybe a third to get Home District named properly.

All of the records are transcribed as Algoma District, north of Superior.

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You just have to be Tenacious! (And spell things out in detail, using little words...)  ;)

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Tim, Thanks for your Persistence and Tenaciousness!

I'll try again, following your directions, use little words and simple examples. 

Did you have to sign up as Volunteer to correct the place names? 

Last time I tried the Algoma District is not the Home District the reply was as described below and in my earlier reply above.

When suggesting that a place name is incorrect as in  mistranscribed or the place did not exist at the time, the answer is 'our people transcribed it that way and we aren't going to change it'. Yes we acknowledge that your family member may have lived in the place you call ...but that's not what we call it.

Answer 2

The drop down boxes are based on familysearch.org place names.  This depends on volunteers to maintain and is dependant on amateur interpretations.  

You could volunteer to maintain the portions where you have expertise or you can just carry one and do what you think is right.  That's a personal choice.

Comments

Thanks for the link Stu, I just left a comment to volunteer. & do you know Brad Foley's WT ID?

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Thanks Melanie, any idea how to volunteer?

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Nope, sorry.  I just know I have seen Jamie (I think it was) post that changes are planned / in the works to have WT's own place name suggestions.  Anything more you'd need to either wait for an announcement, or contact admin.

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ok thanks!

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Here's the link for volunteering: https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1349545/have-canadian-ancestors-interest-canada-come-canada-project

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Thanks Laurie!

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Joining the Canada Project won't help with place names in the dropdown.

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No, it won't, but if there are plans to change the system, who would be most likely to be tasked with the Canadian Place names? (I hope...)

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Yes, you're right, Tim. I set up the Ontario Team and wrote the Location Fields space page when I was Ontario's Team Leader. Because WT uses the location names the ancestor would have used, Ontario has three different names according to the time period. These aren't generally used by FS and FindAGrave and aren't widely known by non-residents. I haven't looked at Brad's spreadsheet, but it sounds useful. Thanks for volunteering!

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I just know I have seen Jamie (I think it was) post that changes are planned / in the works to have WT's own place name suggestions.

Not sure if it was me, but the data we would use would be from WikiTree+. I'm not sure what process Aleš and the Data Doctors use to update that data though.

Answer 3

The myriad issues with the FamilySearch location suggestions are not likely to be resolved any time soon. I have also corrected profiles with locations taken from FindAGrave.

If anyone needs assistance with proper locations in Ontario, please use the Ontario Locator website, or you may feel free to   PM me directly.