Does someone a lot smarter than me want to tackle this?

Question

I've been systematically working my way down the Stedman tree from Nathan Alexander Stedman II, and I've arrived at a family that has me totally befuddled. Meet James Madison Collins (KC2Z-N1Y on familysearch) and his wife, Rebbeca C. Rountree (KH5T-X6V on familysearch).

The Rountree family was born and raised in Nansemond County, Virginia. The mother, Martha Elizabeth Stedman, was born in Gates County, Virginia, but the father, Abram Rountree was born in Virginia, most likely Nansemond County. After marrying, they settled down in Nansemond County and began farming. They had ten children. Six (and possibly eight) of their children died as infants. Their profiles are all completed.

Now I'm working on the two children that grew to adulthood, married, and raised families.

And Rebecca C. Rountree Collins has me completely befuddled.

Were they born in Virginia? Or North Carolina? Some Census records say Virginia. Some say North Carolina. Some children's death certificates say North Carolina. Others say Virginia.

The records are so confusing that I don't dare create her profile. I can't be certain about anything.

They had two daughters that show up in the 1880 Census - Sarah E. Collins and Allena Collins, both 1 year old. They're twins, right? Except Sarah's death certificate says she was born 29 Nov 1879 and her father's name is Pinuk, and Flora Allene's death certificate says she was born 29 Nov 1878.

People complain all the time about families making stuff up about their tree. Well, public records aren't much better in some cases.

Does anyone want to take on this challenge? I am not going to create her profile, because I'm not certain about any of it.

Comments

Have you plotted out their land?  Looks like they lived right on the border and maybe they owned land on both sides.

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I have not. Gates County records aren't indexed, and I haven't checked Nansemond County to see if their records are online.

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The dates of birth can be explained because the information was transmitted orally by a surviving relative, and they are frequently off a year or two. Birthdays late in the year create a lot of confusion. My own father, born in December, 1906, has his birthdate on his draft registration as December 1907, because when he was asked his age in July, 1942, he said he was 35, then when asked his birthday, they wrote Dec 1907.  I am sure that mistake has been made many times.!!  I would go with the 1880 census.

Answer 1

You have Rebecca with her parents in the 1860 Census.  She married James Madison Collins in 1877:

"Virginia Marriages, 1785-1940", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XRFK-5V5 : 29 January 2020), James M. Collins and Rebecca J Rountrey, Nansemond County 4 Jan 1877.

They were counted twice in 1880:

"United States Census, 1880," database with images, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MC52-1DT : 15 January 2022), Rebecca Collins in household of James M. Collins, Nansemond, Virginia, United States; citing enumeration district , sheet , NARA microfilm publication T9 (Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.), FHL microfilm.

"United States Census, 1880," database with images, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MC6T-864 : 14 January 2022), Rebecca Collins in household of James M. Collins, Haslett Township, Gates, North Carolina, United States; citing enumeration district , sheet , NARA microfilm publication T9 (Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.), FHL microfilm.

In 1900 they had four sons at home, Alexander, Robert, James, and Herbert:

"United States Census, 1900", database with images, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MSYN-33K : 7 January 2022), Rebecca C Collins in entry for James M Collins, 1900.

James was listed as a widower in 1910, with sons James and Herbert still at home:

"United States Census, 1910," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MLSN-7ZL : accessed 28 February 2022), James M Collins, Haslett, Gates, North Carolina, United States; citing enumeration district (ED) ED 36, sheet 10A, family 159, NARA microfilm publication T624 (Washington D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, 1982), roll 1101; FHL microfilm 1,375,114.

Comments

Sorry, I absolutely can't help myself...Paul, I have no idea how smart you are (charming question title, though) but I know that Herb is very smart, and you're lucky he took an interest in your question.

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Thanks Julie!

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So, Herbert, how can the same family be enumerated in Gates County, NC on June 4, 1880 and in Nansemond County, VA on June 24, 1880? That makes no sense to me at all. Wouldn't it have to be a doppelganger?

In Gates County, NC, James is a farmer with Rebbeca (wife) and Sarah and Allena (daughters) and C. Ann (cousin) in his household.

In Nansemond County, VA, James is a farm HAND with Rebecca (wife), and Sarah and Florence (daughters).

Surely these are two different families??

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I think the similarities of all four names and dates in the two 1880 Census records strongly suggests the same family, although it's difficult to be certain.  As Kathie Forbes noted, above, Haslett Township, Gates County, North Carolina is on the state line, directly south of Nansemond County.  It's possible the census takers weren't sure which side of the line the house was on.  It might be interesting to see if any neighboring households were also double counted.

The Gates County family is definitely the one of interest.  James McClenney Collins's death certificate proves it:

"Virginia, Death Certificates, 1912-1987," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVYG-WJ1D : 16 August 2019), James Mcclenney Collins, 31 Dec 1957; from "Virginia, Marriage Records, 1700-1850," database and images, Ancestry (http://www.ancestry.com : 2012); citing Norfolk, Norfolk, Virginia, United States, entry #, Virginia Department of Health, Richmond.

I think if you dig deeper into all six Collins children you will find additional evidence.

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I didn't find another family that was double-counted, but I noticed this. In the 1880 Nansemond County Census, living right next door to James and Rebecca is Adam Rountree with his second wife, Susan, and two sons, Claudius and James W.

In the Gates County Census James is living next door to Theresa Collins who has two daughters and one son. Theresa is 60. Her daughters are 29 (twins?), and her son is 25 - clearly a widow, possibly James' mother.

But James of VA's mother is Elizabeth.

So, it appears these are two entirely different families that just happen to have the same names for both father and mother.

Weird. I don't know if this mess can be untangled.

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Flora Allie Collins Smith:

"Virginia, Death Certificates, 1912-1987," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVRD-7TPR : 16 August 2019), Flora Allie Collins Smith, 11 Apr 1957; from "Virginia, Marriage Records, 1700-1850," database and images, Ancestry (http://www.ancestry.com : 2012); citing , Nansemond, Virginia, United States, entry #, Virginia Department of Health, Richmond.  Born Nansemond County, Virginia 29 Nov 1878.  Father James M Collins, mother Rebecca Rountree.

One of the 1880 Censuses probably picked up her first name, the other picked up her middle name.

Alex S Collins:

"Virginia, Death Certificates, 1912-1987," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVR7-ZY8X : 16 August 2019), Alex S Collins, 18 Feb 1920; from "Virginia, Marriage Records, 1700-1850," database and images, Ancestry (http://www.ancestry.com : 2012); citing Craddock, Norfolk, Virginia, United States, entry #, Virginia Department of Health, Richmond.  Born North Carolina 2 Mar 1883.  Parents James M Collins and Rebecca Rountree.  Informant JM Collins (his brother, not his father).

James's (the father) mother was Elizabeth; I don't see how having an older neighbor lady of the same surname casts any doubt on that.

James died intestate in Gates County in 1911.  His eldest sons Alex and James (both of whom have Virginia death certificates showing Rebecca Rountree as their mother) requested LL Smith administer the estate.  Note the detailed property description in the file is Mr Smith's property (not Collins property), which he mortgaged in lieu of cash bond.  LL Smith might have been related to Flora Allie's husband.  That might be worth looking into, but the Smith surname could make searching difficult.

"North Carolina Estate Files, 1663-1979," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDGJ-ZZK : 8 March 2021), J M Collins, 1911; citing Gates, North Carolina, United States, State Archives, Raleigh; FHL microfilm 2,156,163.

Unfortunately, I could not find an obituary for any member of the family.  One good obituary naming siblings can really help tie something like this together.

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I'm going to ignore this family and move in other directions. Someone else can try to sort out that rat's nest of conflicting sources.

Answer 2

Smart people are the ones that ask questions Paul! I am Grateful that you reached. I appreciate your efforts

Comments

Boy, does that bring back memories. My 8th-grade math teacher had a sign above her blackboard. (I'm 74.) I've never forgotten it. It read The only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

Answer 3

I created profiles for Rebecca (Rountree) Collins, along with her husband, six surviving children, and the mystery household member C Ann Collins.  I did so with some reluctance, given the resistance to accepting these all as members of a single family.  Having done the work, however, I decided not to waste it.

I added notes to the profiles of Rebecca and James Collins and their twin daughters, reconciling some of the observed discrepancies.  Naturally, there are some things I can't explain, like the father's name Pinuk on Sarah's death certificate, but I rarely see a perfectly consistent set of records for any person or family.  I did not lay out in detail every fact from the sources on nine profiles supporting the single-family theory, but I'm willing to discuss it further if anyone is interested.

Comments

Are you looking at the actual image of Sarah's death certificate, or a transcript? I have encountered some downright strange "creative" name spellings on transcripts of official records (some of which are apparently done by some kind of OCR), and when I'm in doubt I'll consult the original document. If I can find it. Sometimes scrutiny of the original doc can lead to an "Aha!" moment. Other times it can muddy the waters even further.

Sometimes I have to take a leap of faith.... For instance I was working on a "Mary F aka Mary Frances" somebody, and found a census record that listed her as "Mariette." I guessed that perhaps that was how the census taker heard "Mary F." But I could be mistaken... although this alleged "Mariette" was in the right place at the right time, with the right son. But she probably lied about her age, as there were discrepancies from one census to the next.

Ain't this fun? 

Answer 4

Not smart enough but I did some research and added to Abram's profile with sources. While trying to figure out why Rebecca would be in her home town census on a date after she appeared in Gates County, North Carolina, I came across a lot of probate records for the Rountree family in Gates County. I noticed that the Riddick family is just as numerous there as in Nansemond County. The name appears in Rountree probate records and they were usually neighbors back in Nansemond. So, Gates must have been the migration destination for many of them. At first I thought maybe the Rountree land in Virginia was involved in the corner where the boundary jogs due to swamps but that isn't the case. They lived east of there, according to census records and a road named after them. Anyway, you might find estate records for the family in Gates records found here.