How do I confirm if my Brickwall Wiki profile is dna related to an orphaned Profile?

+5 votes
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After 5yrs of brick wall research, I believe my Wiki tree 3xGrandfather may be the son of another Wiki Tree person whom is on a abandoned profile. How can I confirm they are correctly dna related? It may be the best sensible answer/ resolution to my 5yr brick wall. My mother and I have done dna testing with Ancestry, 23and me, FTDna, reg. dna tests. In addition, I uploaded to GedMatch, my heritage.

 I need simple terms please.
in WikiTree Help by Donna DeMarco G2G1 (1.4k points)
Who is he?

Getting a copy of The Family Tree Guide to DNA Testing and Genetic Genealogy, current edition, by Blaine Bettinger may be helpful. It costs about $30. This was used in a DNA class sponsored by a genealogical society I belong to.

The book has a section on using atDNA to find cousins, and numerous examples of solving problems with DNA, including brick walls.

You may be able to find it in a bookstore, or most certainly from the online book vendors.

There are other books on the topic as well.

Can't directly answer your question but you do have two Cornelia Preston McDonalds where you are the listed as the Profile Manger.  Preston-7999 and Preston-6581 need to be merged.

Preston-7999 has an 1870 Census ( "United States Census, 1870", database with images, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M46B-R2D : 29 May 2021), Cornelia McDonal, 1870.) listed as a data on the Biography and at first glance this does not appear to be your Cornelia with a misspelled last name of McDonal.  The only link is a son also called William who does not fit son William McDonald's Profile data (McDonald-19243).  Too old by 6 years and born in Missouri not Tennessee.  Though from other inferred children's birthplaces, this family did move around....

Good luck on your search, knock down that brick wall.

Thank you for asking Eddie,

My specific person is William Hubbard McDonald, born, 1865 TN. Died 1941, Tennessee.

His father is listed as William H. McDonald on his death certificate. born about 1835 via research thru the William Jr Census records.

After much research...I am ready to suspect that an abandoned profile may be William Jr, father...which I have not been able to document elsewhere.

The abandoned profile is for a

William H. McDonald,(1051) born abt 1832 in Wilson, TN, no death date. This William is listed as having a father of Andrew James McDonald.

I think this William H. McDonald may be MY William's Father???

I am trying to figure out how I could get a dna connection on this.

I have ran thru the lineages of the maiden names married to this line of McDonald's and have matches to those maiden names.

He may be the answer to my brick wall on being able to find the Correct William H. McDonald, Sr.

Look forward to your reply.
The William H who was the son of James married Mary Holman

As son of James 1850 census Wilson Tenn

As husband of Mary with only 2 daughters, 1870 census Wilson Tenn as well as 1880,  living close by James

Marriage doc to Mary

Death docs for daughters
These old Southern families would give their children middle names that were maternal surnames.

A McDonald man married a Hubbard woman, thus William Hubbard McDonald, and according to census, the family started in South Carolina.

In the 1810 census Pendleton SC there is William Hubbard living close to John McDonald ( William's daughter married John's son ???)
I Eddie,

I never knew about the middle name vs Maiden, so I will do some more research on that.

As for South Carolina...My William Sr...is stated as born in S.C on his son's William Hubbard McDonald's census records...EXCEPT HIS DEATH RECORD which states his father William Sr is born in Tennesse. In addition, his mother is listed as Cornelia Preston, born in TN.

I will say in my 15 family dna tests kits we have matches to both Preston's and Presson's...which I find no where in my tree I am assuming because It is still a brick wall for me. So it could be a surname variation?

I so appreciate your help and replies. I know info has to be somewhere but I have searched thousands of sites, records, in so many categories, locals, states...and have not been able to find anything except their names listed on their son's William Hubbard McDonalds death certificate in 1941. It is like they are ghosts.

I have wondered if considering the son William Jr was born in 1865, if there was a civil war tragedy in this family....just one of many thoughts.

I look forward to your reply!

With much gratitude,

Donna
Any recent findings on my Brickwall for info on the Father of William H.(hubbard) McDonald, whose father is listed as William H. McDonald, born in South Carolina around 1835 and supposedly with a Cornelia Preston or Presson?

I am just not fully getting the complexities of WikiTree.

Can anyone help me find info on William H. McDonald, sr?

Thank you all so much!

2 Answers

+3 votes
 
Best answer

Hi, Donna. I'm afraid this isn't going to be thorough answer (long, but not thorough), and there will still be a hefty dose of jargon in it...kinda unavoidable.

From everything described so far, I gather William H. McDonald (Mcdonald-1051) is the orphaned profile you suspect might be your brick wall. If I'm not correct about that, then...never mind.  laugh

But for that William H. McDonald there are only yDNA test-takers shown as possible connections, six of them. You can't compare your DNA to those results shown, and would have to contact the men and ask whether they've taken autosomal DNA tests and, if so, where you can locate their results.

However... From the yDNA information alone we can tell that there are least two errors in the WikiTree pedigree involving William H. McDonald. Of the six test-takers shown in the "DNA Connections" panel (and speaking solely of the patrilineal line yDNA): one of them cannot be related to any of the others; two of them (managed by the same person) can be related only to each other; the three remaining likely are related to each other but more information would be needed to make that a solid determination.

Confusing enough? The upshot is, because the yDNA is not in agreement, it's not going to be possible to use DNA in this case until the genealogy is better researched and the paper trails corrected.

The jargon-filled specifics next, but a quick preamble. What we can tell about these yDNA test-takers is only from the haplogroup information they posted on their profiles. Like it sounds, a haplogroup (a term applied only to uniparental DNA: yDNA and mtDNA) deals with genetic markers that can effectively identify populations in historical groupings, often in terms of anthropological rather than genealogical timeframes. The markers used, single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs), behave differently in yDNA and mtDNA than they do in our autosomal DNA. In uniparental DNA they never recombine, which means that changes happen only by mutation.

And we've learned that many of these mutations can be treated as hierarchical: we know some of them are much older than others, and over the course of the last three decades of DNA testing it's been possible to develop a haplotree, a branching structure similar to our family trees with the oldest known mutations at the top, and more recent ones filling in widening branches below. The (mostly) full sequencing of the Y Chromosome by the Big Y-700 test at Family Tree DNA has rapidly expanded the number of identified branches on that haplotree. In September 2018 there were 16,361 identified branches; today there are 45,901.

At the very deepest levels there may be only a handful of men who have been found to be of the same haplogroup as designated by what's called a "terminal SNP" (an older term that's a bit misleading: before the haplotree started branching so rapidly, "terminal" sort of applied, but now a man might be classified one additional level deeper at any time as new test results are evaluated). In those cases, the haplogroup might provide some measure of information about the degree of relationship between two test takers; it might provide positive evidence.

Higher in the haplotree--as the mutations in the hierarchy become older--the haplogroup can't offer any strong positive evidence for genealogy, but it's extremely useful as negating evidence to show that two men do not share a common patrilineal ancestor in the genealogical timeframe. And that's what we have on William H. McDonald's profile.

I'm going to refer to the haplogroup designations as shown in the "DNA Connections" pane on the profile so that I don't name the WikiTreers; you may need to do a little hunting to follow along.

The entry showing haplogroup R-CLD27 has probably done a Big Y test. That's a deep branch, or subclade, under the R-M198 haplogroup; the older, long-form name is R1a1a. The same person also manages the entry under that one, a 67-marker test showing haplogroup R-M198. I would guess those two men to be closely related.

Entry number six at the bottom of the list is, likewise, shown by testing to be estimated as R-M198. He has tested only to 37 STR (short tandem repeat) markers, but both he and the first on the list (R-CLD27) have added their data to MitoYDNA so we can at least get a comparative glimpse. Via the infinite allele model that FTDNA uses, at 37 markers they would be considered a genetic distance of 2; so they're very possibly related in the genealogical timeframe. Not enough data to make an unqualified decision, but my guess is that we would find that entries one, two, and six share a male ancestor within a time period that would include William H. McDonald.

Entries three and four seem likewise to be related to each other. But there's a bit of a problem here. R-L193 is a deprecated haplotree designation; it doesn't signify a branch on the trees either at FTDNA or YFull. As best I can tell, the current branch designation that includes L193 as a synonym or associated SNP is R-S5982. This has the higher, and more common, R-M269 (or R1b1a1b) as a parent branch. R-M269 and R-M198 haven't shared a common ancestor for roughly 22,000 years. So this pair cannot be related to the three R1a1a folks.

Number five is a bit of an outlier. R-A940 also descends from R-M269, but from R-DF13 A940 branches to R-DF21 while L193 branches to R-L513. DF21 formed about 4,100 years ago, so that means R-A940 is not genealogically related to any of the other five test-takers shown on William McDonald's profile.

A long answer, but I'm afraid one that can't offer any real help for sorting out McDonald-1051. Bottom line is the DNA information does us no good until we can figure out where the errors are in the lineages associated with William H. McDonald.

by Edison Williams G2G6 Pilot (445k points)
selected by Lucas Van de Berg
Thank You! That was the best answer! I am educated enough to be able to follow and understand what you were stating.

I just don't know yet how to figure it out yet.

It was a perfect answer with exception I now know I cannot prove the William H McDonald is the father of my William Hubbard McDonald.

Much appreciated!

Donna, thanks. I have to admit this intrigued me a bit, and I may have at least a little positive news. But  understanding the correct ancestry of William H. McDonald will be key.

Doing a relationship finder check on five of those six proposed "DNA Connections" entries (one's profile is set to a privacy level that doesn't allow us to view it) shows that the possible connection is much farther back than McDonald-1051. Among them, the most recent common patrilineal ancestor is Among the five, and presumably also the sixth, the most recent common patrilineal ancestor is Angus MacDonald "Og" Macdonald Lord of the Isles, 1274-1330.

But those six DNA test takers have their "possible connection" listings propagating even farther, until we come to Somerled "King of the Sudreys, Lord of Argyll" MacGillebride II, ~1115-1164, whose profile has some DNA detail associated with it. Specifically it references the Clan Donald DNA Project, the DNA analysis portion of which is administered by Professor Emeritus of Chemistry, J. Douglas McDonald, of the University of Illinois.

And now it gets interesting. Two of our yDNA test takers are father and son; those are the first two listed and Alan, the son, is Big Y tested to haplogroup (terminal SNP) R-CLD27. The sixth test-taker listed is, as I mentioned yesterday, a decent Y-STR match to Alan at the 37-marker level, which is as far as he's tested. The Clan Donald DNA Project tells us:

"The marker YP326 (FGC11892) is the most likely one to have originated with Somerled himself, though its exact timing is uncertain. The marker YP327 (8391799) [FGC11887] was almost certainly positive by Somerled's generation."

Alan's R-CLD27 is a haplotree descendant of YP326. The hierarchy looks like this:

R-YP330 > YP327 > YP326 > FGC11896 > CLD18 > CLD27

That's solid indication that Alan is a descendant of Somerled. And there's more, which also ties the sixth test-taker, John, into this pedigree. The Clan Donald DNA Project gives us what they believe is Somerled's Y-STR signature out to 111 markers. I won't list them all (I hear a sigh of relief) but it's worth considering only the places where Alan and John differ with those Clan Donald markers.

There are no differences, a zero genetic distance, in the first 12 markers. At DYS458 Alan and John show 16 repeats and the Somerled signature shows 15. However, Professor McDonald notes: "...we now believe that signature originated with his 3rd great grandson John, first Lord of the Isles, and that Somerled himself was 15 rather than 16 at the next to last marker above." In other words, both Alan and John carry the 16 repeats that Prof. McDonald attributes to Somerled's 3rd great grandson. There are no other differences through the 25-marker panel.

At DYS570 the Somerled signature shows 18 repeats; Alan has 18 and John 19. At CDY, which is a notoriously fast moving and volatile marker, the Somerled signature is 34-39; Alan shows 34-38 and John 34-39. Alan has a null, or deletion, at DYS425, while Somerled is 12 repeats. At DYS557 Alan shows 17 and Somerled 15; no other differences through 67 markers.

The net message is that, should John take a Big Y test or do deeper SNP testing, it's highly likely that he too will show as positive for R-YP327. Meaning that we have mounting evidence that Alan, his father, and John do all descend from Somerled. And if--a very big if--the pedigree of William H. McDonald is correct and he is in fact the 19th great-grandson of Somerled, then that would mean we can isolate the other three test-takers as the ones who have the errors in their trees. Only Alan, his father, and John could be patrilineally related to McDonald-1051.

Now additional bad news. While both Alan and his father have taken autosomal DNA tests and have kits at GEDmatch, they're too far removed from William H. McDonald to be able to offer any help. Alan's father shows as being the 17th cousin of McDonald-1051. Never say never, but there's effectively a zero chance that he carries any detectable amount of McDonald-1051's autosomal DNA.

In fact, if McDonald-1051 is possibly you 4g-grandfather, that's about at the pragmatic limits of atDNA matching because you'll be comparing contemporary 5th cousins. If McDonald-1051 is on your mother's side of the family, being able to work with her DNA results will be much, much easier and more accurate since, potentially, you'd be looking at 4th cousin comparisons, or 10 birth events (meioses) rather than 12 with 5th cousins.

Good luck!

+1 vote
Is anybody listed with a DNA connection to the abandoned profile?
by Andrew Ross G2G6 Mach 3 (36.7k points)
Yes, there are people listed as dna matches to the abandoned profile. I am not sure how to use them to help me verify if they maybe dna related to my family dna...which are all women.

Do you offer any suggestions?

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