Glitch in Ancestral lines of Lawrence-952

Question

I've been working on the Lawrence family who arrived on the Planter in 1635 (so they are PGM). Mary/Marie (Lawrence) Burnham is my 8th GGM here profile was revised and update by me and by Chase Ashley last year. Several of her siblings and their children still need work. I started on Maj. Thomas Lawrence-952 about two weeks ago. I've written most of the biography with inline sourcing. Through his daughter Mary and her husband Thomas Walton, according to my sources, Lawrence-952 is the 6th GGF to Franklin Delano Roosevelt (sources include Greene [TG 10:3-30, 1994], Furman [TAG 17:74-78, 1940], Roberts [Descents of 900, Vol II, 881, 2018] and Anderson [Immigrants to NE 1634-1635, Vol 1-6, 259-264, 1996-2011. 

I am now copying and pasting some of what I wrote to Jillaine to describe the 'glitch' that I ran into. 

These Lawrence children, through their father, are also direct descendants of Charlemagne and EuroAristos through Adelais of Normandy, Robert I of France, and Judith of Lens (although I didn't add Judith of Lens = Waltheof (Huntington) of Northumberland). This line to Charlemagne is supported in the Work by Greene. The marriages of Thomas Lawrence's daughters are supported in the work by Furman. Both of these authors are annotated in Anderson's biography of Thomas Lawrence. 

According to GB Roberts (2018) (from Greene), Thomas Lawrence would/should be the 6th GGF to Franklin Delano Roosevelt through his daughter, Mary Lawrence, who married Thomas Walton. Their son William = Mary Santvoort; their son Jacob = Maria Beekman; their son Abraham = Grace Williams; their daughter Maria Eliza Walton = James Roosevelt; their son Isaac = Mary Rebecca Aspinwall; their son James = Sara Delano; their son is FDR. 

 I was surprised that no one had as yet followed up on Thomas Lawrence given his connection to FDR. I pulled up FDR's Wiki profile (Roosevelt-1) to check out his 'Walton' ancestry. Working backwards we have FDR to James = Sara Delano to Isaac = Mary Rebecca Aspinwall to Maria Eliza Walton = Jacob (Jacobus) Roosevelt to Abraham Walton = Grace Williams to William Walton = Mary Santvoort, then on the Roosevelt-1 wikitree there is a major disconnect!

On Wikitree, William Walton becomes Willem Wallen-459 = Maryken Santvoort-14. OK, these are close enough. Willem is now a New Netherland Settler's Project, though. This is not a problem. William's parents are the problem because they are not the parents identified in Roberts, or Greene, or Furman or Anderson (through Furman and Greene)! Willem's parents, according to wikitree, are Daniel Joseph Waldron-34 and Saertie Rutgers-5 NOT Mary Lawrence and Thomas Walton as listed in any of my references. Daniel Joseph Waldron doesn't even have a brother named Thomas. His profile was created in 2010. What they do emphasize in this profile is Waldron's path to John D. Rockefeller. A number of profiles for Maj. Thomas Lawrence, his children, their spouses, and now the Wallen/Waldron clan require biographies and/or proper sourcing. 

As a side note, I thought the New Netherland name for FDR was Roosevelt. I thought the Lawrence/Walton names were part of his English line.

Again, I already contacted Jillaine and she recommended G2G especially given that we are working on so many levels: PGM; Presidents, New York (PGMandBeyond); New Netherland. Anne B is aware of the work being done on Thomas Lawrence because she added him to PGM a week or so ago when I contacted her about information from Anderson. I also made some revisions to the sourcing for the Charlemagne lineage based on a request from Marinacole on May 26. So, this profile had been worked on diligently for several weeks with great input and feedback. 

It would be much appreciated if G2G folks could now assist with determining the Mary Lawrence/Thomas Walton/FDR connection. If no connection, I will delete the presidential trail; however, I believe someone from WT will need to write a rebuttal to Greene's TG article and notify Roberts as well so that the FDR connection to this Lawrence family and FDR's lineage to Charlemagne is removed. 

Thank you for your assistance in this matter! Take care and stay safe, Carol

Comments

@Carol, give it some time.  Now that you've posted your concerns, I suggest keeping detailed notes and attach this link somewhere on profile.  You've received great responses and many more will follow.  Keep working on it and you'll find your answer.  Maybe not today, tomorrow, or maybe not a month from now, but when you least expect it.  

Double check what you SAVE.  Good luck ♥

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Dear All of You Wiki-Responders!

I truly appreciate all of your assistance and feedback! I am so very pleased with your help! I am going to respond to each of you individually on this feed with a comment, but want to do a group thank you first. I want to include Jillaine in this thanks even though she is not on the feed for her very helpful recommendations.

ALL: I am using Roberts 2018 Descent of 900 Immigrants NOT the earlier versions. On page 881, Roberts lists the descendants of Mary Lawrence (daughter of Thomas) = Thomas Walton and indicates (very probably, see TAG 17 [1940-41}74-78. On pages 883-884 Roberts lists the sources for Lawrence. 

JOE COCHOIT: Your searches and comments are always insightful. I appreciate your Walton Family of New York source and always wonder how the hell you find these things! Thank you! As to Greene's article. You are correct. I know (and thought I mentioned as did Anderson in his footnote that I cited in my message) that Greene only gave the English ancestry. I tore my home office apart looking for the article (I live in Tucson) only to find that my hard copies of genealogy files are at my university office in Phoenix. Haven't been anywhere but home since the pandemic. Again, thank you so much for your help!!!

CHASE: Sometimes you irritate me like my younger brother (who I love dearly even when he irritates me). Your search skills and seeking sources are enviable (not unlike Joe's) and I'm jealous. Thank you so much for 'being there' for the Lawrence family. The arguments you make with the various sources you have found separate from Greene and Furman are cogent. Once  some agreement has been made regarding whether or not Thomas Walton and Mary Lawrence are the likely parents of William Walton, your 'evidence' (the various links you have provided along with the information from Joe's 'Walton Family of New York' might make for a reasonable publishable 'proof' to add to FDRs ancestry. Someone suggested that this G2G post should have been titled as 'Glitch in Ancestry of FDR' and that is likely true. I only caught this because I was working on this *&^%&*(&$# Lawrence family of mine/ours. Again, thank you! I will be sure and post Acknowledgements for you wherever I put these links (Lawrence, Walton)

ROBIN: I so love the way to take care of our presidents and their ancestry. Please see my 'ALL' comment above indicating that I use the 2018 edition of Roberts 900 ancestors (page 881). He lists the sources for Lawrence (pp 883-884). Your comments help me to view the pros and cons of Mary Lawrence and Thomas Walton as the potential parents of William Walton on down to FDR. We will see how this best unfolds for FDR and his ancestry. Thank you so much for your input!

ALL: I will continue to work on Thomas Lawrence's profile. I still need to add his extensive land holdings that he purchased from the Indians and other New Yorkers, then his death and probate. I will then add to and enhance the profiles for Mary Lawrence and Thomas Walton and check this post as to suggested outcomes for these two and determine if they should be connected to/the parents of William (Willem) Walton, the ancestors to FDR. To be honest, the links and 'evidence' provided by Chase and Joe suggest to me that Mary Lawrence and Thomas Walton are the ancestors to FDR; however, I want to stay open to other evidence. Chase, I would ask that you help me with these listed profiles and, perhaps the remaining Lawrence brothers (William and John). 

I just found that John is a Notable (wikipedia story that he was mayor of New York from 1672-1674 and 1691 - preceding Bill de Blasio). There are also several sources for the Lawrence family, several focusing on Thomas:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lawrence_(New_York)

Thank you all so very much! 

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Paula,

For as much time as I've got, I will give it. Thank you for your fine recommendations and I will see about adding this G2G link to the bottom of Thomas Lawrence's profile, as well as his daughter Mary and probable son-in-law, Thomas Walton. Great ideas!

Answer 1

For FDR's lineage, the key seems to be the identity of "Willem Wallen" who married Mary Santfoort on 7 Sep 1698. See marriage record at https://archive.org/stream/recordsofreforme01coll#page/88/mode/1up His WikiTree profile (Wallen-459) says that Willem was the son of Daniel Joseph Waldron and Saertie Rutgers. As evidence for that, the profile cites a 22 Feb 1679 record of the baptism of Willem, son of Daniel Josephs and Sara Rutgers. See 2d to last entry on https://archive.org/stream/baptismsfrom163921evan#page/136/mode/1up I am no expert on Dutch names, but I don't see how that baptismal record relates to the baptism of a Willem Wallen, son of Daniel Joseph Waldren.

A 1940 TAG article, states that the Willem Wallen who married Mary Santfoort on 7 Sep 1698 was William Walton, son of Thomas Walton and Mary Lawrence. See TAG 17:78 https://www.americanancestors.org/DB283/i/11861/78/23569749  But that article gives no evidence to support that assertion.

Purple's "History of Ancient Families of New Amsterdam and New York" says that "Willem Wallen" was properly "William Walton" and references baptismal records as proof. See https://archive.org/details/cu31924028835458/page/22/mode/2up And, in fact, the Dutch Reform baptismal records have entries for the children of "Willem Walton" and "Maria Santvoort" starting with son Thomas in 1699 (see https://archive.org/stream/baptismsfrom163921evan#page/260/mode/1up ) and including son Jacob (Roosevelt's ancestor) in 1709 (see https://archive.org/details/baptismsfrom163922evan/page/n13/mode/2up) Purple states that William Walton was "probably" the son of Thomas Walton and _____ Lawrence who married 16 Dec 1671.

So far, the evidence above seems suggests to me that "Willem Wallen" was more likely the son of Thomas Walton and [Mary?] Lawrence than the son of a Daniel Joseph Waldren.

Comments

The argument that Willem, son of Daniel Josephs and Saertie Rutgers was the son of Daniel Waldron appears to be based on the fact that there are baptismal records for children of Daniel Waldron and Saertie/Sara Rutgers. See, eg, 4th from the bottom of https://archive.org/stream/baptismsfrom163921evan#page/142/mode/1up The argument would be that (1) the baptismal record for Willem, son of Daniel Josephs, was incorrect or incomplete and (2) Willem Waldron was Willem Wallen from the marriage to Mary Santfoort and also the William Walton who had children by her. As far as I can tell, this theory has not been adopted to any significant degree on the internet.

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The Walton Family of New York notes a mourning ring was made by his widow, and whose providence can to some extent be tracked.  It reads: "W. Walton, OB. 1747 AE 72, MAY 23"

A birth date of about 1675 tells me:

He is not the person baptized 22 February 1679,
1675 fits better with a marriage in 1698 (age 23 vs age 19) and
1675 fits perfect with parents marrying in 1671 and having an older brother born in 1672.

I think this at least add support to the idea that William Walton was the son Thomas Walton and Mary Lawrence, and not of Daniel Joseph Waldron by Saertie Rutgers.

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The fact that Willem/William Wallen/Walton's first son was named Thomas also supports the proposition that William was the son of Thomas Walton.

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Chase and Joe

These are the same arguments given by those who have Thomas as the father.....Roberts is always clear in his assumptions, that there is no "proof".   So the question becomes, should we on WikiTree who care about accuracy, show any parents for Willem or follow the lead of Roberts and others, indicate the "potentials", but show no connection?

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Based on what I have seen, I would disconnect his current parents, connect Thomas Walton and [Mary?] Lawrence as his parents, mark their parentage as uncertain, and discuss the evidence in his bio.

Answer 2

I have gone through all the sources used by the US Presidents Project, including Roberts, Gary Boyd , The Royal Descents of 600 Immig rants to the American Colonies or the United States , Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co. (2008) , 564. and Roberts, Gary Boyd, comp. , Ancestor s of American Presidents , Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society (2009) , 503.

None of those books, nor any other reference material has a source for the father of William Walton.   There is a comment in an article from 1968, that he "might be" the son of Thomas Walton.    I would trust that the NNS project has found the correct sources.

This is not the first time that the US Presidents Project has found lineages that have never been proven, yet everyone copies....the US Presidents Project would recommend removing parents from the profile, provide all of this discussion, but leave the determination until proof is found.   

Answer 3

I have also checked the article you mentioned:

Greene, David L. "The Royal Ancestry of the Ipswich (Massachusetts) and Long Island Lawrence Families," in The Genealogist, volume 10 no.1 (Spring 1989): pages 3-30.

It is only concerned with the English ancestry of the family.  It only briefly mentions Thomas Lawrence-952 as a son of Thomas Lawrence and Joan Antrobus.  It does not give any of his children and certainly not his grandchildren.  It also makes no claim of a connection to President Roosevelt.  Wherever Gary Boyd Roberts got his information, it was not from this article.

Comments

I cannot find where Gary Boyd Roberts indicates parents for Willem....everything says, he may have been the son of Thomas.....but, nothing is proven.

Answer 4

I do think it is interesting that https://ia802607.us.archive.org/32/items/registerinalphab00berg/registerinalphab00berg.pdf   a source on the [[Waldron-34|father's profile]] indicates no son named Willem/William, yet a baptism is found.   That would normally indicate that the child died young and therefore is not found in wills or other documentation about the family.  

I also worry about a source when they state within the source   http://www.ancestralcurios.com/tmp_na_baptisms_1639-1730.htm#3141

This listing corrects hundreds of typo errors that appear in the other
online versions and in the book

What did they base their corrections on?