Have you determined your linkage to The Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne?

Question

I read an article which stated that it is estimated that most Europeans are descended from that great man and I wonder how many Americans have made the same discovery. I have for one have. Unfortunately I haven't been with WikiTree long enough for Pre 1500 entries.

Comments

Even though both these Martin lines my be correct, and a line to John of gaunt, and then onto to Charlemagne. The MARTIN NAME and royal line, to HOUSE ATHELHAMTON/BEAUMONT and I guess his line as well as mine, were both barred from Royal succession, by the pope, so even though our lines are direct lineage, we were delegitimized as a royal surname!

This was the punishment for their part in the wears of the rose's

here is another line on my dads side through his grand daughter Joan Beaufort

Martin
Farmer
Henby
Attaway
Bailey
Stewart
Scots
Beaufort
Gaunt or plantangine

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The last of the male Martyns of Athelhampton did not suffer any stigmatisation. He was sheriff of the county, on his father's death his mother remarried Sir John Tregonwell, a rich lawyer and courtier.  Nicholas died in 1595. His tomb in the parish church at Puddletown records that he was the 'last' .He had four female heirs and no surving male issue. He was a wealthy man, whose income was predominantly from farming. He was not royalty or anywhere near.

His brother Thomas's descendant  still held Pale Park at the time of the civil war and it was then sequestered as he was a Royalist (and recusant ie a Catholic as most certainly was  Nicholas Martyn's mother).There is some attempt to link one of Thomas's sons to America prior to this but the dates don't fit when you look at  the evidence)

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That all fits except, this line of mine comes in above that. This is where my Mansfield line,  marries the Martyn surname in 1570 or so. in pale park. this is actually where Martins marries De Aubeney and Beauchamp's marry back into this line, at Lucy Neville, Warwick's granddaughter

So all the players left after the wars, marry up here!

Elizabeth Martin marries John Mansfield. in abt 1570?

Martin
Wood
Winchester
Dodge
Mansfield/MARTIN Elizabeth
Beauchamp/Browne Elizabeth
Somerset/Herbert Elizabeth
Beaufort/Beauchamp Margaret
Gaunt or Plantagenet

My own surname dies out at this point in the civil war 1850, this line splits and goes to john of Ghent on this line! Now this is strange because Jane Farmer marries into the Martin's in the civil war. But the farmer family goes straight to my surnames cousin, Earl of Warwick!

my family have been marring the same people for ever. that is what my tree says!

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Martin name had been legitimized by the pope twice!

now what is royalty! not great royalty, but it married well. Marrying into many royal family's as you can see! They held titles, they held lands from the king, they were in the peerage!

So I don't know what that has to do with it, if they left a line!

My Martin line comes from here

William Nicholas de Caineis in Tours,Puy-de-Dome, Auvergne, France Martyn de Tours is the lineage and if that isn't royal nothing is! that is Martin lineage!

I assume your talking about Robert as the last Martyn of athelhampton? well that is my grandfather, and I am through his daughter! Elizabeth! according to this tree! but I am also from his brother, Thomas in another line also!

One of these brothers were the father of john martin of Jamestown America, his father Christopher came over after his sons death and died in America with children also!

I have seen some evidence he married his sons widow Sarah MARTIN.

So my surname coming from this union is #Mansfield not Martin because my Martin grandmother marries into the Mansfields here! the line does END for males, here on the Robert side!

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Yes, on my mom's side I go back to Charlamagne through gateway ancestors Rev, Peter Bulkley and Grace Chetwood.(Chetwode). Both are my 13 x's great grandparents.

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Until I came to Wikitree and realized how many poorly sourced and in many cases, impossible family trees were published on other sites, I had all kinds of connections.  Now, using only connections that are proven, I am very far from being connected and my DNA says I am 97% western European.   So, I applaud all of you with well proven connections!

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97% is a pretty amazing number actually, when did they come to America?

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I do not think this result is unusual. It depends a lot on the method of the testing company of course.

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I have found my parents are 13th cousins through a one Thomas Vessey born in 1524. I am descended from Charlamagne on both my mom's and my dad's side. Charlamagne is my 36th great grandfather on my mom's side, and my 38th great grandfather on my dad's side.

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Charlemagne is my 33GGF on my dad's side. Louis I, his son, is my 32GGF; Gisela di Friuli, Louis' daughter, is my 31GGM; Berengar I Gisela's son is his GGS and my 31GGF; and the list goes on.

Answer 1

A better way to phrase this question is . . . Have you proved your line . . .

Too many people have 'determined' their line by looking an ancestry.com trees or off of information from great Aunt Ethel or Uncle Bob who figured it out . . .

Comments

Well said. I hope everyone reads that. No one can come to wikitree or any other site and simply take what it says about connections to Charlemagne as true. There is work to be done genealogists if we ever want to have that situation. People check their line in a critical way. There are many wrong connections on wikitree, but also many good ones are missing.

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Right to the point Darlene.

I'm hoping for the time when the first question newly met genealogists ask each other is not "How many people are in your tree?", or "How far back does your tree go?" but "How do you prove the accuracy of your tree?"

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I try and run the male side, then proof that, then add spouses and children! so at least you have the right surnames, to start with, then your going to be only off a step, or half through marriages! that can be fixed!

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I like your approach to the question, Dave. Well organized and well thought out.

I'm an impulsive and disorganized person by nature (ADHD) but a genealogy beginner class explained the value of census records. Spelling becomes crucial.

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Well ancestry works great if you know how to use it. even here if you don't look closely auto fill will mess you up and  everyone else. I don't know how many sourced people that are good to go except they are Spain,

But it will be like Spain oklahoma or something? I mean 1000s of records with a right city and then its like Rome, KANSAS? its just auto fill correcting their idiocy?

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true for sure, I actually ran into the priory of scion thing the other day, that should be more well known lol!

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Yes this is true. But many more like myself have used Ancestry auDNA tests and also have used 23andMe as I did. I get the same results from both. Love WikiTree because of their strict rules for citations, etc. and the need for only one page per person. Makes sense.

Sincerely,

Jeannette

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Very True,

I was able to prove my lineage to Charlemagne as my 36th GGF for membership in the Order of the Crown of Charlemagne in August 2019 through the Ponce de Leon Family using the first proven Spanish Royal Gateway Ancestor Juan Montes Vigil.

I was the first to do so after the extensive vetting of Juan Montes Vigil as a Royal Gateway ancestor. 

The Application was 21 pages of cited sources with a Proof Package of the cited Sources over 131 pages of period documentation linking each generation to the next from me to Charlemagne.

I do not have the pre-1500 authority so, I am unable to place the pre-1500 lines on Wikitree. 

However it is on  Genealogics .org  so the lineage & Sources are available to all.

https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00760108&tree=LEO&fbclid=IwAR1LqCZlcp4HuLoG2PjWTxDEp7SQlP8QcXW6OO40nRWHjFPVPcA8NrZ-nc4

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Hi Gregory, Wikitree is a project that will never really be finished of course, but what might help in a case like yours is if you could post comments on the existing profiles for any of your ancestors where we should be adding more relatives. Bit by bit we can hope to link them up. You do not need pre 1500 certification to add comments.

If you do that, then the work is half done for those of us who are already working on pre 1500 profiles. (Of course you can also start the process of getting pre 1500 approval yourself.)

Challenge on your side: the sources you mention may not be clear enough or strong enough, but you could help a lot by already checking to see if they explain what evidence and argumentation they are relying on.

Answer 2

As you say millions of people are descended from him, but it is not easy for them to see on Wikitree because the relationship finder does not go back far enough. Also, there are many false genealogies out there. If you can trace your ancestry back reliably to known Magna Carta Gateway ancestors or English royalty, chances are you descend from Charlemagne.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Gateway_Ancestors_-_Magna_Carta_Project

Comments

AHH the wikitrees relationship finder finder seems to be key here!

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I'm not sure what you mean by the relationship finder being the key. The relationship finder only works if the profiles linked have been done so accurately via thorough research.

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probably not the best tool for that query!

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LOL, I had never used it!

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The Wall Street Journal says that if each generation averages a set of parents and 1 boy, 1 girl, then mathamatically when you hit 133 generations, you will have 1 TRILLION ancestors. So having some remote tie to Charlemagne is no big deal.

 

Answer 3

The popular notion that most if not all Europeans descend from Charlemagne is based on assumptions that don't really hold up in reality. It is not even correct in a statistical sense. In essence, for this theory to be true the following assumptions were made:

• One's 2ⁿ ancestors are equally distributed throughout the population then living.
• One needs a homogeneous population mixture (i.e. people from different parts of Europe, say England and Italy, have the same rate of intermarriage as next door neighbors; nobility and peasants intermarry at the same rate as people with the same craft; etc.).
• One needs a homogeneously growing population (no migration, everybody has the same chance of survival).

A good introduction to some of these issues is Richard Dawkins' The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Life, ISBN 0-618-00583-8

In short, unless one has the documented line of descent all bets are off.

Comments

I'll take up your example:

John of Gaunt's only descendants using the name Lancaster (or similar) are in the Portuguese nobility. He might have sometimes been called "of Lancaster" as Duke of that region, but many people were called "of Lancaster" because of less impressive connections to the same region.

The biggest population of Lancasters seem to descend from a some illegitimate sons of an early medieval Baron of Kendal, who used the surname Lancaster hundreds of years before John of Gaunt was born. It is not totally clear why they used that surname.

My best guess about the origin of my family surname so far is that my line took it up when they moved to Yorkshire from Lancashire (normally just called Lancaster). Probably they came from the part of Lancashire known as Furness, because that is where their close DNA matches seem to come from, and also the Abbey there owned land near the place where my Lancasters first appear in Yorkshire records, and seem to have placed people there to run those lands.

On the other hand, and here is the positive lesson for those who put the real effort in, long after I ruined my father's family's claim to being in John of Gaunt's family, I proved that my mother does descend from him.

I am much more satisfied with a line I can really follow and feel proven. That is real genealogy.

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one of his wife's

Blanche De Lancaster

1345–1369

Birth 25 MARCH 1345 • England

Death 30 SEPTEMBER 1369 • Spilsby, Lincolnshire, England

wife of 18th great-grandfather

tells me she was a second wife, but she is the mother of Henry IV De Lancaster! and other was, 

Katherine Swynford

1350–1403

Birth 25 NOVEMBER 1350

Death 10 MAY 1403 • Lincoln, City of Lincoln, Lincolnshire, England

18th My great-grandmother

So that is two lines right there, and I haven't searched for more!

John gaunt wasn't Lancastrian he married into that!

 

 

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But have you personally checked the evidence for the connections between each parent and child all the way between these people and yourself? I am not saying you need to do it if you do not want to, but one aim of wikitree is to get such evidence clear and posted on each profile so that you can.

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I think before anyone can claim anything, they need to have checked the evidence, be able to present that evidence between parent and child all the way and at least up to the point of the Gateway Ancestor. Somebody notable, usually always has a historically recorded ancestry, but even then and sometimes it is not always clear who might have been a son/daughter, etc, or not. But until that link is proven, nothing can be claimed. ........I saw one person on another forum, claiming a cousin descent from Edward IV, through a 'Stoughton' that married his daughter Margaret of York. Only trouble was, Edward VI daughter, Margaret of York died at 8 months old and didn't actually marry anybody. Obviously no research had been done by this person, not even a simple check into the story of the life of Edward IV, but they'd still been making that connection anyway. ......It's not a dig at you by the way Dave, before you take it as such, you may well have the evidence....... Like Andrew, I just think that unless there is direct evidence that can be presented for each step of the way, nothing is a given.

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Well obviously this will never be solved. Because no one is actually related. You people are calling it the Charlemagne gene, and it is obviously the god gene? if we all have it, or not one of us do!

probably wasting my time here. My 4th great grandmother is Rachel Beauchamp!  the line here! stops at john Beauchamp. Because of some project, that seems to be stalled! So I cannot complete the Beauchamp tree here. yet I don't see an issue at john Beauchamp that would cause this stall?

I am 21 degrees from WINDSER-1 on here! She shows DNA in a line to john of gaunt as a DNA match, I do not!  but I do match her!

So I do have the lineage! So obviously the DNA is good. The tree is good! But this is just AU an M, So I cannot say if my fathers side is or not related by DNA! to john of gaunt. The tree says it is so!

But it also does say, I am related to other famous people in the peerage by DNA.  that also have lines to that tree! So until I get my ydna done, I cannot say much one way or the other!

waiting on a 23andme test to see if it helps confirm anything here! I suspect my DNA is not my actual surname given Me, So monkey business is involved somewhere!

takes so long for DNA tests.

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Dave, best thing to do would be to start a new thread on G2G, with a neat version of your claimed royal descents, then everyone can have a look at those. But I don't think any talked about a Charlemagne gene except you? I really do not know what you mean by it. (No one knows anything useful for genealogists about Charlemagne's or John of Gaunt's DNA at this time that I am aware of.)

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Dave, you might find it informative to watch this video from the Useful Genetics course by Rosie Redfield of the University of British Columbia (brilliant course)   In particular the first part of this video explains why after about 20 generations, which was about 500 years ago we would have had about 1,000,000 ancestors but "more than 99% of these ancestors didn't make it to become genetic ancestors."  You tube  

 The exceptions of course being the inheritance of the Y chromosome and of mitochondrial DNA.  Unfortunately,  there have not been any known inheritors of Charlemagne's Y chromosome for very many centuries..https://dna-explained.com/2015/12/20/charlemagne-742748-814-holy-roman-emperor-52-ancestors-103/

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I am going to run my tree out here, if others in projects would let me!

and as far a it being a gene, it is either a gene, or a family line, and a family line isn't going to be in every persons family tree!

so how can we all be related to Charlemagne as people have said, if its not a gene? if its a line then that's pretty easy to see? MY LINKAGE is my tree.

and a simple line to john of gaunt is not that hard to figure out, if he was

John of Gaunt Beaufort 1st Duke of Lancaster

1340–1399

Birth 6 MARCH 1340 • St. Bavon's Abbey, Ghent, Belgium

Death 3 FEBRUARY 1399 • Leicester Castle, Leicestershire, England

18th great-grandfather

lol the DATES are all good, it matches other people in the tree at the same period, exactly what is so hard about determining if your tree says you are related? What are we trying to prove?

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Dave Martin-32982:

Thanks so much for your thoughts re. Charlemagne and John of Gaunt! I share your 'take' on ancestry and trees to a T! You probably won't believe this; but yesterday evening, I logged-on to my Google account, and at the top of the page, js a web site I had used to research the "English Kings and Queens" a few months ago. Lo and behold, I traced my British/Scottish lineage to none other than - John of Gaunt! I have printed out quite a few 'houses' of British/Scottish Royal lineages and am attempting to clean out the 'clutter'. However, I do remember having much of this information in my Ancestry and 23andMe trees, as well as, on WikiTree!  Since my (and your, apparently) ancestry goes back to most of the major royal houses in Europe, we are able to confirm our lineage using family connections as well as DNA results. Thank you so much for your input. I have sent for a book

Jeannette

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yes and my tree aligns here in wikitree! all these people match to me!

Answer 4

I don't know about 'most' or 'all' in Europe are descended from Charlemagne, but I run across more than a few that claim it.

I have followed my lines back to him in both Wikitree and Family Search. They were automatic connections that were a result of my known lines, not by any action on my part. It was not a direct blood line but connects through marriage. With that and two dollars I can get a cup of coffee. Still, it is interesting. I do this for the grandchildren not myself. I don't want them running to school and telling everyone they are descended from Charlemagne (Who?), but I do want to peak their interest in World History..

Comments

its pretty hard to get to Charlemagne, with our going through some serous lines! So if you are, the surnames to him. Are more important! It is like he is the end of the road, but you still travel to get there!

The lines to get to him!

Answer 5

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/05/07/charlemagnes-dna-and-our-universal-royalty/    From National Geo...   the mathematical paper that says all Europeans are descended from Charlemagne

By the way, the Queen of England is, so if you show through WikiTree that you are related to her, then you are likely on the trail to how you might related to Charlemagne

Since I have both Scottish and French ancestry as well as German and Austrian plus with DNA readings some others, that would according to this article be a good bet...  

Fact is, my husband and I have dueling family crests and castles... it is a game of ancestry... of course he would not know his if it was not for my research!   But it is fun and makes for some lively family dinners.

Comments

Anyone that doesn't have the info that links themselves or another family member to a person, shouldn't really be linking themselves to that person. I wouldn't dream of just assuming someone was an ancestor, linking myself or a family member to that person and without any evidence of that relationship. But as you say Ken, some do, do it. Profiles with no sources, should be unlinked and until a relationship can be proven. I see more profiles with no sources whatsoever, than I see profiles with sources. Yet oddly, all these no source profiles are linked up to people and with no evidence to point to a relationship.

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Well where the Beauchamp's tie into my line is 3 grand's out. And I did DNA on them! I think its Margaret/Elisabeth  Beauchamp not sure now! they are both grandmothers!

So my tree basically aligns with wikitree I fell right into the line no problems I didn't concoct those profiles? if your saying the line is unsourced its not my part! and if it is, I HAVE SOURCES for my edits!!

my problem is they are all protected, and I am not 1500 certified so I cant even continue my line in about 20 different surnames? there is absolutely no doubt about my Beauchamp line to wiki! and I don't find that much wrong with wikis tree, it basically aligns with mine 100%

of course that is just my tree, I don't know about others on wiki and if their lines are correct? its seems pretty good to me!

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Dave as you mentioned in another post all lines to Charlemagne are through well known people, so if your line is proven but missing i suggest starting a new thread to explain that, so we can fix it. (Please do not keep adding to old threads with side discussions because this makes it hard to have good discussions in the community.)

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May not be missing! my problem is ,When I go to add almost anyone to my tree here. It is protected in a project! So I am not 1500 pre certified, I cant adopt or edit these profiles, to get past them with my tree. So I may not connect yet to that profile. I have one line out of many that goes partially to that profile! Here on WIKI. I think the problem is my family marries into the Beauchamp's as Martha Cowan, and I don't think a lot of people at related the that line, and seems to not be known? but ties into the known Beauchamp line.  I will get my YDNA eventually but I was just told I may live from cancer, so maybe I will have more time for projects!

I know I should proof a line for all this stuff. But been sort of busy! I know your looking out for wikitree. I like the site!

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Exactly. This is why I suggest a very common method in such a case: start a NEW G2G thread concerning anything you think needs fixing. This often gets good feedback.

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I don't think my not being 1500 certified is their problem, though! I mean its a rule, I just have to wait or whatever.

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Why don't you just apply for pre 1500 membership and explain why you want it. That you have further information that could help the tree grow. Its not really fair that we are prevented from adding further and pre 1500, if we have good reliable info and credible sources. .....I think the requirement is, being here over a month, having already well sourced and presented profiles and being a member of a couple of projects.

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Not sure, like I said been sick for a while buy, we will see. thanks though.

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Dave if we talk about pre-1500 profiles then the first steps when looking at a big chunk of profiles, for example a specific group of ancestors, are always the same, always for those of us who do have editing rights already, so you can do the first steps already:

1. Identify the line you are looking at and work out if it agrees with your own notes.

2. Work out which changes might be needed on wikitree and then propose them to others working on those profiles (you can use the message boxes) or on G2G.

The thing is that you should define what is needed and then explain the rationales to others.

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I will do that, I do appreciate the help. and I love that people fight protect the accuracy of all this. Thanks Andrew.

Answer 6

It is a known Fact that if your Western European you descend from him.
My Ancestors came to North America 300 plus years ago My Dna Results revieled im 100% European
His YDNA Haplogroup is R1b or R-M269 his DNA Marker information is on the net also.

I have made it back to him through my Paternal Line Through 2 ancestors

my immagrant Scott ancestor and his wife.

i am not pree1500 certified here yet to share with Wikitree

Comments

Gone are the days when bits of dead people were the main money spinner. But could they return?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_haplogroups_of_historic_people

 

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/britain_ireland_dna.shtml#germanic_migrations

 

http://originhunters.blogspot.ca/2013/07/conquering-williams-dna.html

 

http://originhunters.blogspot.ca/2014/04/exploring-rollos-roots-dna-leads-way.html

 

http://norwaytoday.info/culture/dna-hunters-unopened-viking-grave-in-normandie/

 

http://www.normandescendants.org/viking-dna-results-normandy/

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see links i posted

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Yes but none involve Charlemagne?

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"Based on a study of men with surnames historically associated with William and their corresponding Y-DNA, I concluded that I identified the genetic signature of the first Norman King of England."

This would be fraud if you were paying for it.

 

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I believe isogg.org has a page where it lists some interesting studies on royals.

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you point my argument out, that DNA yours and mine, who probably have a direct route Charlemagne, was here early enough, to be the distributers of that DNA from the beginning of America? and so distributed it nationwide?

does a person from Ireland never in America have the DNA? have we searched?

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I don't know if we are related to him, are we related to Charles Martel and is that who we are really related to? Or his father even. or PEPPIN? LOL

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Dave it is very hard to understand some of your posts, but maybe this helps. It is possible to have a distant ancestor like Charlemagne and to have received none of your DNA from that line of descent at all. This is because DNA goes to children in big blocks, not little blocks.

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See I agree with you! I don't think its a DNA ,link to Charlemagne. More like a block of DNA, from that DNA pool!

But Some may have a genetic line to their surname, or what have you!

Answer 7

Once you get your pre-1500 certification, Charlemagne lines are a wonderful way of helping clean up old profiles.  I haven't found a line from me to Charlemagne that withstands scrutiny yet, but every couple of months or so I find a new one in WikiTree.  Then it's an adventure looking at the profiles in the trail to see where the documentation of life and linkages is strong, and where it is weak, and adding whatever research I can find.  So far, I've always managed to disprove the Charlemagne connection, but I hope I've left behind some stronger profiles and detached a few people who should not be linked!

Comments

My connections to Him are through my immagrant ancestors Richard Scott and Katherine Marbury, Katherine's Line back is well documented and  easy back to william l the Conqueror Richard was tricky.

if you google Martin Bowen Scott , he is a descendant of Richard down a different line than myself, the search results reviel that Richard is said to have descended from William Baliol so i did alot of research to dig up info to find his path back to him Throuugh the Scott's of Scott's Hall.

There is an old book Memorials of the Family of Scott of Scott's Hall in the County of Kent with an appendix to illustrative documents,

it is on the net a text versiion comes up once opened there is an option for other formats choose PDF the text version does not give you the pedigree's it looks like a Scan OCR copy of the book that garbles some of the info.

in one of the Pedigree charts there is a Richard Scotte and Mary Whetenhall, other sources on the net state that Richard Scott's line who Married Katherine Marbury  is an offshoot from Richard and Mary Whetenhall so i found the info for that connection.

another good read is the antiquity of the name Scott by Martin Bowen Scott

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You sometimes have to be wary of old books with extensive genealogies. If they have citations to original records then that is better, but otherwise they really need to be checked against other sources.

Particularly some of the early generations in these books are a nightmare.

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I hate to rain on your parade, but I remember reading somewhere recently (maybe soc.genealogy.medieval, but not sure) that the connection between the Scotts of Scott Hall in Kent, and John Balliol in Scotland, is now considered spurious.

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then more than likely your tests are profiles like his father?

and Dagobert or some other route? all from memory so sorry?

because some ,lines are as clear as they will ever be, as it will be for  genealogical purposes! But I can tell you this, if you get close to this, your pretty damn interesting in the tree dept.!

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I had a partial tree up on Geni.com and im connect to the world tree there and i just found another path to him through my Paternal Great Great Grand Mother Sarah Anne Bryant who Married my Great Great Paternal Grand Father here is the link to the Path to Charlemagne

https://www.geni.com/c/4f52fe5dcecdc9f51dc42b00860839f4c397b67b

my main Tree is at Myherritage.com, i have 2 more paths further back in my Paternal Line, one is through Katherine Marbury and 1 a ways back in her husband's line Richard Scott and another path through a branch in my Mother's Maternal Line

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Of Course the sources will need to be checked in the profiles

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Thank you Jack for improving those Medieval profiles!

Wishing you the best in discovering your own link to Charlemagne.

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Take a peek at mine STJOHN-37

Answer 8

Queen Elizabeth II is a blood cousin, so all of the other royals are "in-laws" to me. I haven't found a way into the bloodlines yet.

Take a look at photos of George V of England and Tsar Nicholas II at around the same age. They are cousins who look more like twins.

Comments

https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:Relationship&action=calculate&person1_name=Rivenbark-7&person2_name=Martin-32982

That shows your family marries into the Beauchamp's by marrying the Coles?

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Dave Martin - I don't have Beauchamp's and Cole's in my tree on ancestry.com (at least not now). You and I connect at William Hill, making us possibly 11th cousins.

 If you check Rivenbark-7 to Windsor-1 you can see my blood connection to Elizabeth II.

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https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:Relationship&action=calculate&person1_name=Rivenbark-7&person2_name=Martin-32982

 

Beauchamp's marry Coles, Coles marry Hill's and bang BOBS your uncle!

Answer 9

I am willing to accept that, per the National Geographic article, all persons alive today that are of European ancestry are descended from Charlemagne. The difficult part for most people in establishing their connection by genealogy is that the documentary trail establishing the parentage of commoners usually falls apart sometime in 1600-1750 (depending on location). Unless you can connect to a noble line sometime before your documentary trail dries up, you are out of luck.

Comments

I agree with it, I just disagree with it as a world wide thing, have you tried to see if the Arabs have it in them? since his dad kicked their butts?

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I wont say that is true, DID they say every African, was or Hawaiian? did they geographical tests against other races?

Because that wouldn't be a Charlemagne GENE it would be the GOD gene!

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No population of humans was every completely sealed off, and any break in the seal means shared ancestry.

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your name

 does not mean just your line! Check this out, you ancestor would be Edmund Crouchback which supposedly they dug up and did DNA on when they excavated grey friars abbey? and it may have not matched winder-1 if I remember right! wonder if he has a DNA sample here? I am checking now! lol

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They found Richard III at Grey Friars, not Edmund?

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ahh, well I live in the woods, news isn't that great!

Answer 10

The other thing to remember, when doing statistical genealogical analysis, is that MOST of the people who were alive at the time of Charlemagne, or William the Conqueror, or Edward II, have NO LIVING descendants.

I remember reading (can't remember where) that, in the middle ages, the average  number of generations for a new title (i.e., before all the direct male descendants of the original holder died) was 6.  It is obviously a bit longer if you include the female descendants, but still...

So the lines that DID survive get concentrated.

The other thing to remember is that younger sons of younger sons often moved down the social ladder quite rapidly.

Comments

"The other thing to remember is that younger sons of younger sons often moved down the social ladder quite rapidly."

Agreed. That's the only way most of us Americans are related to noble lines. The elder sons of the noble lines had no reason to emigrate. The New World looked like a better option, however, for some of the younger sons on the cadet branches.

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true, but when the migration started, England was eating these people alive with taxes and lease's, so the business of peerage, was hurting.

It forced this migration of second sons! In my case ,I don't really care about first born or last, just son to father, is what I am after right now!

I know that in my case, a lot of these fought against their native country! in the revolution. I find tory and patriot, but more patriots it seems! I guess they had something to protect here at that point. This tree has Washington on his mothers side BALL, and the traitor benedict Arnold!

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In the English peerage in particular, they followed primogeniture, which basically means everything goes to the eldest surviving son.  Second and younger sons usually had to make a career for themselves, most often in the military or the church.

However I think far fewer younger sons ended up in the 'colonies' then we think, many of the relationships back to the English peerage have often proved to be myths and only really based on a common surname and nothing more.

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well somebody with the name came, the line of Beauchamp goes back to 14 earldoms, so maybe it was an (average)!

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My observation of colonial Maryland history is that there was a preponderance of English at the top of the colonial social structure, but among those who came over as indentured servants there were lots of Scots, Welsh and Irish who really didn't like the English much.  They sent over prisoners who didn't like authority, and then added slaves from Africa who had never been taught to sing God Save the King.  So when you look at the proportion of people in Maryland who didn't like the English, it's a wonder that the American Revolution took as long to arrive as it did!

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this is all true, EXCEPT, they didn't come first! there was at least 3 trips with people not like that!

they were wealthy, they paid for each others passage, and they owned the farm's and plantations, the rest came to work at after 1624, So dates matter!  as those indentured people from where ever, and way after 1607 or even 1620. they started coming about 1624 onward!

Answer 11

Yes, in full detail. Also a descendant of Rollo, Edward I, William the Conqueror, St. Begga, Gregory the Illuminator, etc. All through the Drury-Stapleton-Calthorpe-Bardolf lines in my family.

Comments

I have him as a grandfather and his brother Ragnar also! in another line from Vikings, But I have Rollo on the English side? married to a grandmother line!

Answer 12

I haven't but I feel the question is appropriate for chalemagne or euroaristo categories.. but is too generic and not really germane to the narrow focus of magna_carta

Comments

If you are asking if there are lineages to Charlemagne that do not go through the Magna Carta Barons, the answer would be: of course there are.

I'm putting this out here to help those who may have already discovered their link to one of the following eight MC barons, by showing where the documentation is that will take them from their Magna Carta baron to Charlemagne. I'm sure there are many paths to Charlemagne that do not go through England at all, but what we have in the books I cite by Douglas Richardson, are paths with documented evidence.

Michael, when I discovered Magna Carta barons in my family tree I made it a priority to document those connections. I was amazed to eventually discover that many of the Magna Carta Surety Barons are descendants of King William the Conqueror, and so also descended from Charlemagne. I would have thought the same as your comment if not for the years of considering those lineages - and also for the gifts of nine not-so-inexpensive books. I have not found connections to Charlemagne for all of the MC barons, and the following is not a complete list.

My birthday is in December, so that year I asked to have no other presents for my birthday and Christmas than the four volume set of Magna Carta Ancestry, by Douglas Richardson, published 2011.

Richardson published Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, in 2013. It begins with William the Conqueror (1066) - and includes the Magna Carta barons. The Five volume set was my birthday/Christmas gift a few years ago.

In the Introduction to Royal Ancestry, Richardson writes that

"The Appendix in Volume V sets forth descents for both King William the Conqueror and wife, Maud of Flanders, from the Emperor Charlemagne (died 814).

How many of the Magna Carta barons were descended from William the Conqueror, and therefore from Charlemagne?

One random peek (see page 557) into Volume One of Royal Ancestry shows that Walter FitzRobert of Little Dunmow, Essex, who is father of Robert FitzWalter, Magna Charta Baron, is descended from Alice of Normandy, wife of Lambert, Count of Lens.

Richardson includes Alice (aka Adeliza) of Normandy as a full sister of King William the Conqueror, who is a descendant of Charlemagne. Following is an incomplete list of Magna Carta barons with documented lineage to Charlemagne.

Hugh Bigod and Roger Bigod are also descendants of Charlemagne through Alice of Normandy, Royal Ancestry Vol 1, page 362.

Richard de Clare (died 1217), married Amice of Gloucester - she is a descendant of King William the Conqueror. Their son Gilbert de Clare (died 1230) is therefore a descendant of Charlemagne. Royal Ancestry Vol 1, page 216.

Saher de Quincy is a descendant of Alice of Normandy, Royal Ancestry Vol !V, page 436.

If you are a descendant of MC Surety Baron Geoffrey de Say (died 1230), then you are a descendant of Charlemagne through Geoffrey's wife Hawise de Clare, whose mother, Amice of Gloucester is a descendant of Charlemagne. Royal Ancestry Vol IV, page 562.

MC baron William D'Aubengy (died 1236) is descended from Charlemagne through Alice of Normandy, sister of William the Conqueror. Royal Ancestry Vol II, page 392-393.

Sir William de Huntingfield (died about 1221), Magna Carta Surety Baron, is a descendant of Charlemagne through Alice of Normandy. Royal Ancestry Vol III page 373-374.

Mr. Marlyn Lewis, creator Our Royal, Titled, Noble, and Commoner Ancestors and Cousins, has a convenient list of the Magna Carta Surety Barons, linked to their profiles with footnotes to Royal Ancestry and Magna Carta Ancestry. by Richardson.

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pretty sure you could run me against any of these. and get a match. Since I have seen them all in my tree, many times!

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Wonderful - and now you can prove your lineage to Charlemagne, once you have documented your line to one or more of the Gateway Ancestors on this list at Magna Carta Project.

Of course, getting there is no small accomplishment. It helps that Richardson's list of Gateway Ancestors is overlapped by Robert Charles Anderson's work on the evidence for Pilgrim Great Migration. His books are found in many libraries, and online at NEHGS and at Ancestry, and give us the first and second generations of Magna Carta ancestry in America.

So, between the Magna Carta Project and the Pilgrim Great Migration Project, we have the information from Anderson and Richardson that takes us from the second generation in America to their Magna Carta ancestors.

I love the synergy in the projects at WikiTree, creating a sum greater than its parts.

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I can skip the barons. William the Conqueror is my 25th great grandfather. This is the trail from my 3rd great grandfather, Landman Asbury. Have to do it in chunks because wikitree only does 25 generations.

1. Landman is the son of Mary Ann (Taylor) Asbury [unknown confidence] 
2. Mary is the daughter of Richard Taylor [unknown confidence] 
3. Richard is the son of Edmund Taylor [unknown confidence] 
4. Edmund is the son of Mary (Gregory) Thomas [unknown confidence] 
5. Mary is the daughter of John Gregory [unknown confidence] 
6. John is the son of Margaret (Thornton) Gregory [unknown confidence] 
7. Margaret is the daughter of Christopher Thornton [unknown confidence] 
8. Christopher is the son of Stephen Thornton [unknown confidence] 
9. Stephen is the son of Thomas Thornton [unknown confidence] 
10. Thomas is the son of Thomas Thornton [unknown confidence] 
11. Thomas is the son of Roger Thornton [unknown confidence] 
12. Roger is the son of William Thornton [unknown confidence] 
13. William is the son of Margaret (Stapleton) Thornton [unknown confidence] 
14. Margaret is the daughter of Bryan (Stapleton) de Stapleton KG 
15. Brian is the son of Agnes (FitzAlan) Stapleton 
16. Agnes is the daughter of Brian FitzAlan 
17. Brian is the son of Alan FitzBrian 
18. Alan is the son of Brian FitzAlan 
19. Brian is the son of Alan FitzBrian
20. Alan is the son of Brian FitzAlan 
21. Brian is the son of Berthe (Bretagne) of Richmond [unknown confidence] 
22. Berthe is the daughter of Matilda (Normandie) de Bretagne [unknown confidence] 
23. Maud is the daughter of Henry (Normandie) of England 
24. Henry I is the son of Guillaume (Normandie) de Normandie 

 

 

 

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I match all gate way  Magna carta barons, But 1

I match all the mayflower accepted known gate way ancestors.

I match them here already! Don't know how much more I can prove, but the DNA connections? my tree says the same thing wiki trees does about my whole tree, I have no errors yet from mine to here? it has 56k persons

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they are all in my tree! the fitzbryan or fitzbrian are the only question~s

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Hi Dave:

Somewhere on this G2G blog, I read a reply from you to me stating that our connection may be through our maternal line(s) and not our paternal line(s). I thoroughly agree! I realized this maternal connection a couple of years ago when a fellow WikiTree'er made that connection for me and also through Mayflower ancestors!

I will copy and paste my lineage from Charlemagne to me, which is through my maternal line. Both my maternal and paternal (surname Martin) lines had married in the past. I don't have the facts exactly right now; but have come across this many times especially on Ancestry (DNA tested).

Sincerely,

Jeannette (Martin-Brideau) Saladino

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https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:Relationship&action=calculate&person1_name=Martin-11379&person2_name=Martin-32982

My 18th grandfather

your 16th grandfather

look at this part of it all our common ancestors!

Explore more: 191 common ancestors were found between Jeannette and Dave within 25 generations. To view the relationship trails, select the common ancestor here.

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Thanks, Dave. I always use this Relationship Finder. The only issue I have with it is one cannot copy the many common ancestors' names listed. I would love to be able to have a printout of these ancestors in order to research further.

I had stated earlier that my ancestral line here only goes back through my maternal lines. Not so; I have just (once again) found some relationships on my paternal (Martin) line(s);  possibly, through the 'Collette' name (paternal grandmother), as they originated more in England/Ireland, etc. rather than France/Germany.

Today I have found once again on WikiTree (Ancestry earlier) the line(s) I am related to Charlemagne, Louis the Pious, his son. This has not been confirmed as of yet; however, I just confirmed on WikiTree that I am the 23rd Geat Granddaughter of Louis (Capet) of France. I had this information before now; today I confirmed it once again.

thanks once again for your expertise,

Jeannette (Martin-Brideau) Saladino

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 Just copied from WikiTree Relationship Finder: It shows my Capetian lineage from my paternal line:<!-- Trails for each common ancestor... -->

1. Jeannette is the daughter of Joseph Stanislaus Martin [confident]
2. Stanley is the son of Suzane (Colette) Martin [unknown confidence]
3. Suzane is the daughter of Maglorie Collet [unknown confidence]
4. Maglorie is the son of Joseph Collet [confident]
5. Joseph is the son of Rosalie Thériault [unknown confidence]
6. Rosalie is the daughter of Madelaine Robichaud [unknown confidence]
7. Madelaine is the daughter of Marie Léger [unknown confidence]
8. Marie is the daughter of Jacques Léger [unknown confidence]
9. Jacques is the son of Charles Carolus Léger [unknown confidence]
10. Charles is the son of Perette Lacaille [unknown confidence]
11. Perette is the daughter of Adrien d'Abancourt Lacaille [unknown confidence]
12. Adrien is the son of Jean Adrien d'Abancourt Lacaille [unknown confidence]
13. Jean Adrien is the son of Jeanne (De Salazar Vrouwe van Marcilly) Poutincourt [unknown confidence]
14. Jeanne is the daughter of Hector De Salazar Vrouwe van Marcilly [unknown confidence]
15. Hector is the son of Lancelot (De Salazar Vrouwe van Marcilly) de Salazar Baron van St. Just-Sauvage [unknown confidence]
16. Lancelot is the son of Marie (de la Tremoille) de Salazar [unknown confidence]
17. Marie is the daughter of Georges de La Trémoille [unknown confidence]
18. Georges is the son of Marie de Sully [unknown confidence]
19. Marie is the daughter of Louis de Sully [unknown confidence]
20. Louis is the son of Marguerite de Bourbon [unknown confidence]
21. Marguerite de is the daughter of Louis (Bourbon) de Bourbon [unknown confidence]
22. Louis I is the son of Robert de (Capet) Clermont [unknown confidence]
23. Robert de is the son of Louis (Capet) de France [unknown confidence]
<!-- it's the last -->
This trail tells us that Louis IX is the 21st great grandfather of Jeannette.

<!-- End if common ancestor found -->

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Sure, you tree here will be the same, you may not be able to use the DNA tools with no ydna DNA but the finder works on our tree. and x and AU so some can be confirmed. You can confirm through it though! with enough DNA and participants!

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Once more for today and then I must eat dinner! I went to my tree on Ancestry where I have been mt and au DNA tested. I have typed the results of my lineage from Charlemagne, and it is an eye opener for me! It also explains why I have three trees for Charlemagne, and the two others show him as a great uncle or aunt, etc. to me. I am pasting a copy of this document below; however haven't checked facts, so may need correcting if needed. Many of these great grandparents of mine were/are already known to me; just didn't realize they may be a direct line to Charlemagne!

Jeannette (Martin-Brideau) Saladino Direct Lineage to Charlemagne the Great:

1. Emperor Charlemagne – (742-814) – 32^nd Great Grandfather

2. Louis I Holy Roman Empire – (778-840) – 31^st Great Grandfather

3. Gisela ‘Verona’ Princess Holy Roman Empire Germany – (820-892) – 30^th Great Grandmother

4. Kungunde Grafin Von Schwabin (864-918) – 29^th Great Grandmother

5. Arnulf Von Barbenberg – (880-937) – 28^th Great Grandfather

6. Arnulf II Palatine of Bavaria – (913-954) – 27^th Great Grandfather

7. Sieghard Count of Teisendorf – (930-987) – 26^th Great Grandfather

8. Frederick I Pfalzgraf Swabia VonBuren – (962-1027) – 25^th Great Grandfather

9. Frederick VonBuren – (998-1068) – 24^th Great Grandfather

10. Frederick VonBuren – (1015-1094) – 23^trd Great Grandfather

11. Frederick I Von Hohenstauffen – (1050-1105) – 22^nd Great Grandfather

12. Frederick Von Hohenstaufen – (1090-1147) – 21^st Great Grandfather

13. Frederick I Barbarossa Emperor Holy Roman Empire (1122-1190) – 20^th Great Grandfather

14. Henry VI Hohenstauffen Holy Roman Emperor – (1165-1197) – 19^th Great Grandfather

15. Frederick II Hohelstaufen “The Wonder of the World” Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire – (1194-1250) – 18^th Great Grandfather

16. Margherita Swabia – (1225-1292) – 17^th Great Grandmother

17. Giovanna d’Aquino – (1246-1271) – 16^th Great Grandmother

18. Caterina Sanseverino (1495-1472) – 15^th Great Grandmother

19. Alfonisino Orsini (1472-1520) – 14^th Great Grandfather

20. Lorenzo II “Duke of Urbino” Medici – (1492-1519) – 13^th Great Grandfather

21. Catherine de Medici Consort France – (1518-1589) – 12^th Great Grandmother

22. Elizabeth de Valois of France-Queen of Spain – (1545-1568) – 11^th Great Grandmother

23. Jean Terreau (Theriot) – (1556-1644) – 10^th Great Grandfather

24. Jean Theriot – (1571-1637) – 9^th Great Grandfather

25. Jean Theriot – (1601-1671) – 8^th Great Grandfather

26. Jeanne Terriot – (1644-1726) – 7^th Great Grandmother

27. Pierre Thibodeau – (1670-1734) – 6^th Great Grandfather

28. Rene Thibodeau – (1706-1756) –5^th Great Grandfather

29. Joseph Castin – (1749-1817) – 4^th Great Grandfather

30. Madeleine Thibodeau – (1778-1798) – 3^rd Great Grandmother

31. Marguerite Comeau – (1808-1882) – 2^nd Great Grandfmother

32. Lazare Alain Brideau – (1834-1916) – Great Grandfather

33. Lazare Brideau – (1861-1939) – Grandfather

34. Alma Marie Brideau (Martin) – (1910-2003) – Mother

35. Jeannette Anne Martin (Saladino) – (1938-) - Self

I found this information on Ancestry as one cannot document it here on WikiTree due to constraints re. belonging to a 1500 group. I believe I had joined this group when it was first formed and because I had a lot of ancestors in my GEDcoms from both Ancestry and 23andMe from 1500 and 1700. In any case, most of these ancestors are familiar to me and I will keep trying to certify them as time permits.

Answer 13

Yes, both my mother's and father's lines go back to Charlemagne,  They both came from early colonial families.  My father's have Scottish and English lines, also some members of the Doomsday book...my mother's line is primarily English and French, including the Beauchamp line connections.

Pretty interesting following all of that and knowing how many other people are able to look at those connections back.  Really makes the "one tree" take on great meaning!

Comments

​Must be a connection above 10 steps that would be very old, Interesting.

Martin-32982 I don't even match your Beauchamp side? yet I match them all the way back to Richard Neville!

Now you could be above him in the Beauchamp line, that would be in the 8 or 9 hundreds? but possible!

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Actually, my Beauchamp connections may not all exist in WikiTree as yet, but, more directly, my 18th great grandmother on my mother's side is Alice Neville Fitzhugh.  From my great grandmother back on my mother's side: 

 4. Sarah is the daughter of John McWhorter Crumrine 5. John is the son of Susanna (McWhorter) Crumrine 6. Susanna is the daughter of Delilah (Stalnaker) McWhorter 7. Delilah is the daughter of Susannah (Radcliff) Stalnaker 8. Susannah is the daughter of William Radcliff 9. William is the son of Elizabeth Reed 10. Elizabeth is the daughter of Elizabeth (Ide) Read 11. Elizabeth is the daughter of Timothy Ide12. Timothy is the son of Martha (Bliss) Ide 13. Martha is the daughter of Dorothy (Wheatley) Bliss 14. Dorothy is the daughter of Mary (Fiennes) Fiens15. Mary is the daughter of Gregory Fiennes 16. Gregory is the son of Thomas Fiennes 17. Thomas is the son of Thomas Fiennes 18. Thomas is the son of Thomas Fiennes KB 19. Thomas is the son of Alice (Fitzhugh) Fiennes 20. Alice is the daughter of Alice (Neville) FitzHugh 21. Alice is the daughter of Alice (Montagu) Neville22. Alice is the daughter of Eleanor (Holland) Montagu

and from Eleanor Holland back:1. Eleanor is the daughter of Thomas Holland KG 2. Thomas is the son of Thomas (Holand) de Holand KG 3. Thomas is the son of Maud (Zouche) Holland 4. Maud is the daughter of Alan (Zouche) la Zouche 5. Alan is the son of Roger (Zouche) de la Zouche 6. Roger is the son of Alan (Zouche) la Zouche7. Alan II is the son of Roger (Zouche) la Zouche8. Roger is the son of Alan (Zouche) la Zouche 9. Alan is the son of Geoffrey (Zouche) la Zouche 10. Geoffrey is the son of Eudes (Porhoët) de Porhoet 11. Eudes I is the son of Josceline (Porhoët) de Porhoët 12. Josselin is the son of Guethenoc (Porhoët) de Porhoet13. Guithenoc is the son of Judicaël (Bretagne) de Porhoët 14. Judicael is the son of Ermengarde (Anjou) de Bretagne 15. Ermengarde is the daughter of Geoffroi (Anjou) d'Anjou 16. Geoffrey I is the son of Foulques (Anjou) d'Anjou 17. Foulques II is the son of Roscille (Loches) Anjou 18. Rosele is the daughter of Thietburge (Bosonid) de Loches 19. Thietburge is the daughter of Berta (Carolingian) Lotharingia 20. Berta is the daughter of Lotharius (Carolingian) Lotharingia 21. Lothaire II is the son of Lothair (Carolingian) Italia 22. Lothar I is the son of Hludowic (Carolingian) 23. Louis I is the son of Charlemagne Carolingian 

 

 

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On my father's side from my great grandmother Phoebe Coil Fortner to my 11th great grandfather, George Whyte:

4. Richard is the son of Phoebe aka Phebe (Coil) Fortner 5. Phebe is the daughter of Joseph Coil 6. Joseph is the son of Rebecca (Skidmore) Coil 7. Rebecca is the daughter of Joseph Edward Skidmore 8. Joseph is the son of Rebeca (Miller) Skidmore 9. Rebeca is the daughter of Rebecca (Leonard) Billings  10. Rebecca is the daughter of John Leonard 11. John is the son of Lydia (White) Leonard 12. Lydia is the daughter of Richard White  
13. Richard is the son of George Whyte Kt. And back to William, the Conqueror, who links back to Charlemagne:2. George is the son of Richard Whyte 3. Richard is the son of Richard White 4. Richard is the son of Eleanor (Hungerford) Garth 5. Eleanor is the daughter of Robert Hungerford 6. Robert is the son of Walter Hungerford KG 7. Walter is the son of Joan (Hussey) Hungerford 8. Joan is the daughter of Edmund Hussey 9. Edmund is the son of Reginald Hussey 10. Reginald is the son of Reginald Hussey 11. Reginald is the son of Unknown (Verdun) Hussey  12. Unknown is the daughter of Margery (Bohun) de Verdon 13. Margery is the daughter of Humphrey (Bohun) de Bohun Knt 14. Humphrey VI is the son of Maud (Lusignan) de Bohun 15. Maud is the daughter of Alice (Eu) de Lusignan 16. Alice is the daughter of Henry (Eu) d'Eu 17. Henry is the son of John (Eu) d'Eu 18. John is the son of Margaret (Champagne) Eu 19. Margaret is the daughter of Guillaume Blois 20. William is the son of Adele (Normandie) de Blois 21. Ala is the daughter of Guillaume (Normandie) de Normandie 

Another line on my father's side that is not fully sourced and connected in WikiTree goes thru mother of Richard Whyte, Eleanor Hungerford Garth and her mother Margaret Botreaux Hungerford.  Her line connects back thru the Beaumonts and Comyns to the Holland>la Zouche line on my mother's side:

Dave, I am not sure what you were looking for, but you and I share a common great grand mother, Mariota Leslie, as well as many ancestors.

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Well the names are right!  So HI COUSEN!

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Well you have the names for sure, they are all my surnames too!

I will run against the Neville's, did you do that? with me?

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Dave, it appears Richard Neville had daughters Katherine and Alice--Katherine being your 16th great grandmother, and Alice being my 18th great grandmother--so yes we are cousins.

We may also share many of the same Gateway ancestors.

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I have 23nd me coming, but I am going to get my Ydna done too, now.

See my surname dies and no hope of finding records, think the civil war. I suspect my line any way! But he people he is married , Farmers  got a line of the martins of athelhampton, who crazy! out a few generations in EU.

So I suspect that is why they married my grandfather NAME

Owen Martin?

the wars of the rose's allies here in the colonies, were still fiercely loyal to Family names, I am finding!

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And Since you have same tree as I doFortner-341 , You should be able to see that those names that are gateway to mayflower here on wiki, the accepted known lines from Richardson I think? not sure who ever!, all come from Beauchamp's Beauforts, I would have to go look but, its our people? the Wars of the Roses people!

Tudors

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I will add more people, but my tree stops at protected profiles at every turn!

Answer 14

Yes, but for some reason some Americans dispute the line but not European or British accept decent via William the Conquer and my Warren ancestors.

Comments

its kind of funny! really not that much dispute really, we are fighting history here, and trying prove it. I think the overall connection was made in America, and in Europe, and I would love to see if you ran a tree on a full blooded African, if he would he connect to Charlemagne too? as per the suggestion of world wide relations! I think certain races most defiantly are!

I don't think he would!

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https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:Relationship&action=calculate&person1_name=Evans-13140&person2_name=Martin-32982

I match you buddy, Man Atherton is a long line!

Answer 15

I have just "learned" that Charlemagne is "supposedly" my 34th Great-Grandfather on my Father's side.  His was full blooded Norwegian.  I see many comments that "lean" towards British ancestry as the link but mine run through the Danish, German and Dutch royal families prior to getting to Pepin, King of Italy and then to his father - Charlemagne.  Now the fun starts proving/disproving this lineage.  Tried to see if I there were any similar links on WikiTree but as I don't have 1500's certification that came to a dead end quite rapidly.

Comments

Agreed. I have a lot of Italian lineage before 900 and soon after in my line from Charlemagne, many German ancestors (mother's side). Then I go back to Italian, Spanish, English, Scottish and finally, French. Wow!

Sincerely,

Jeannette

Answer 16

Still working on my connection, having to manually click at each profile to  connect thru the finder, as the quick relationship finder isn't finding it, I guess because its too far going back, or I don't know the secret to quick find. 

anyway just for giggles amusement sake..if these wiki profiles put in place by others from my 9th gr.grandmother Catherine  de Baillon, this is how far I've got back tonight using the 30 gen search one profile back at a time

 

Direct Relationship Found

There is a direct ancestral relationship. Mathilde (Kleve) de Luxemboug is the great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grand mother of Arora (G) Anonymous.

Mathilde is the 21th great grandmother of Arora

1. Arora is the daughter of [private mother] [unknown confidence]
2. [Private] is the daughter of Odile Mary Phaneuf [unknown confidence]
3. Odile Mary is the daughter of Marie Melanie (Chouinard) Phaneuf [unknown confidence]
4. Marie is the daughter of Marie Melanise Longtin [unknown confidence]
5. Marie is the daughter of Florence (Bissonnette) Longtin [unknown confidence]
6. Florence is the daughter of Josephte (Moquin) Bissonnette [unknown confidence]
7. Josephte is the daughter of Josephte Dubois L'Hirondelle [unknown confidence]
8. Josette is the daughter of Jacques (Dubois L'Hirondelle) Dubois Rondel [unknown confidence]
9. Jacques is the son of Marie Thérèse (MIVILLE Deschenes) Miville Deschenes [unknown confidence]
10. Marie Thérèse is the daughter of Charles (Mivelle) Miville-Deschenes [unknown confidence]
11. Charles is the son of Marie Catherine (Baillon) de Baillon
12. Catherine is the daughter of Alphonse (Baillon) de Baillon [unknown confidence]
13. Alphonse is the son of Renée (Maillard) de Maillard [unknown confidence]
14. Renée is the daughter of Miles Nicolas Maillard [unknown confidence]
15. Miles Nicolas is the son of Bénigne (Le Bouteillier) Maillard [unknown confidence]
16. Bénigne is the daughter of Jean (Le Bouteiller) Le Bouteiller de Roquemont [unknown confidence]
17. Jean is the son of Guy (Le Bouteillier) Le Bouteiller [unknown confidence]
18. Guy II is the son of Catherine (de Gavre d'Escornaix) de Gavre [unknown confidence]
19. Catherine is the daughter of Isabelle (Ghistelles) de Gavre d'Escornaix [unknown confidence]
20. Isabelle is the daughter of Roger de Ghistelles [unknown confidence]
21. Roger is the son of Jean IV de Ghistelles [unknown confidence]
22. Jean IV is the son of Marguerite (Luxembourg) de Ghistelles [unknown confidence]
23. Marguerite is the daughter of Mathilde (Kleve) de Luxemboug [unknown confidence]
This makes Mathilde the 21st great grandmother of Arora.

Comments

ok so this as far as I get b4 the 30 generations finder quits workin too for me. lol

24. Mathilde is the daughter of Elisabeth (Brabant) de Cléves [unknown confidence]
25. Elisabeth is the daughter of Marie (Capet) Brabant [unknown confidence]
26. Marie is the daughter of Philippe Auguste (Capet) de France [unknown confidence]
27. Philip II is the son of Louis (Capet) de France [unknown confidence]
28. Louis VII is the son of Louis (Capet) de France [unknown confidence]
29. Louis VI is the son of Philippe I Capet [unknown confidence]
30. Philippe I is the son of Henri (Capet) France [unknown confidence]
This makes Henry I the 28th great grandfather of Arora.

Answer 17

My descent was simple due to the work of a relative Elizabeth Prather Ellsberry. I am descended via my paternal grandmother a

Lantz,

Minnis,

Warren

Isabel [Elizabeth] Adele de Vermandois, Countess of Leicester, granddaughter of King Henry I of France and

Gundred, Princess of England, daughter of William, the Conqueror and Maud or Matilda, daughter of Baldwin V., Earl of Flanders, and granddaughter of Robert, King of France

Thence via the French royal line

Answer 18

In the 1990s, John B. Colligan and Dr. Rick Hendricks were the next researchers to uncover significant additional genealogical information concerning the Montes Vigil family. Colligan located an important testimony of Francisco Montes Vigil among documents of the Spanish Archives New Mexico that described how Francisco allowed his children to be considered as children of other couples in order to assist Captain Juan Páez Hurtado in acquiring funds to support the recruitment of settlers for New Mexico.

The testimony of Montes Vigil confirmed that he and his wife came with five children to New Mexico: 1) María de la Concepción, b.ca. 1684; 2) María de los Nieves, b.ca. 1686; 3) Pedro Policarpo, b.ca. 1687; 4) Juan Carlos, b.ca. 1689; 5) Domingo, b.ca. 1693.4 Other children of Francisco Montes Vigil, as identified by Fray Angélico Chávez, that were apparently born in New Mexico were Gertrudis, Elena, Francisco, Manuel, and Juan.

María Clara Martínez documented numerous lines of descendant from Francisco Montes Vigil and María Jiménez de Enciso in her published genealogical compilations. Her well-researched books are valuable resources for individuals who are tracing their New Mexico Vigil family roots.

Answer 19

According to Henrietta Christmas, president of the New Mexico Genealogical Society, people in New Mexico who have the surname Vigil most likely have a common ancestor who is a descendant of Charlemagne.

That makes these New Mexicans descendants of the man who is credited with uniting most of Western and Central Europe under the Roman Catholic Church and who was himself declared the Holy Roman Emperor during the early Middle Ages by Pope Leo III.

https://www.abqjournal.com/1340250/royalty-in-new-mexico-vigil-family-related-to-charlemagne.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1563113896

Answer 20

Asturias Spain to America gateway ancestor Juan Montes Vigil.  

It is confirmed that any individual who can trace a lineage verified by documentation to Francisco Montes Vigil (born circa 1666, Zacatecas) is a descendant of Charlemagne (born 748 A.D. - died 814 A.D.), Holy Roman Emperor. 

Comments

"583 different paths were found between Drew and Charles Carolingian (abt.0748-0814)."

"Drew and Erik are 25th cousins twice removed."

"5 common ancestors were found between Drew and Erik."

"At least 100,000 different paths were found between Charles and Erik."

My goal is to someday create a tree visualization that shows this via a chart from http://learnforeverlearn.com/ancestors/

It would require a properly formated Gedcom file to do this.

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Thanks, Cuz 583 is a lot to source. Who are the common ancestors?

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Check out the "Relationship Finder" tool, it is pretty interesting and one of the great features of WikiTree that has been improved a lot over the years.

Here is your link to Charlemagne:

https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:Relationship&action=calculate&person1Name=Sullivan-20493&person2Name=Carolingian-77

And our cousin relationship:

https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:Relationship&action=calculate&person1Name=Sullivan-20493&person2Name=Granstrom-5

Also of interest is the Connection Finder which shows that you and I are 26 degrees apart via in law connections on the World Wikitree.

https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:Connection&action=connect&person1Name=Sullivan-20493&person2Name=Granstrom-5&relation=0&ignoreIds=

Yes many of the paths to Charlemagne may need to be sourced better, but it's all a good place to start researching.

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Cool, the unverified lineage through the Saavedras are very interesting to me. My mother is a Saavedra but we haven't been able to trace them at all. We know they were Knightly and members of the Order of the Band. The verified lineage is through the Ponce De Leon family here. https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00760102&tree=LEO