Ralph II (Vernon) de Vernon
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Ralph (Vernon) de Vernon (abt. 1241 - abt. 1334)

Sir Ralph (Ralph II) "The Old Liver, Baron of Shipbrook" de Vernon formerly Vernon
Born about in Shipbrook, Northwich, Cheshire, Englandmap
Ancestors ancestors
Brother of [half]
Husband of — married [date unknown] [location unknown]
Husband of — married [date unknown] [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Died about at about age 93 in Englandmap
Problems/Questions
Profile last modified | Created 20 May 2011
This page has been accessed 23,319 times.

Biography

European Aristocracy
Sir Ralph II Vernon was a member of the aristocracy in England.

Ralph De Vernon, Baron Vernon of Shipbrook, was born about 1251 in Shipbrook, Northwich, Cheshire, England, or circa 1241-1251 or 1246.

His father was Ralph De Vernon, Rector of Hanwell, and his mother was Cecilia Crew.

He married Mary Dacre.

In 1319, Ralph de Vernoun, knight to Margaret late the wife of Ralph his son, release, for her life, of his right in the manor of Hanwell (Oxfordshire).[1]

His death date has been stated as 9 July 1325, or 24 April 1312, at Bostock, Cheshire, England, after July 1325, or circa 1334.


"COPPY OF AN OLD PEDIGREE REMAINING WITH Sir JOHN SAVAGE, KNIGHT." [Harl. 1424, fo. 125.][2]

Sir Raufe ye Vernon, the old, who lived vij XX zer & 10 zer (vij=7), married Mary the daughter of Lord Dacres. They had four sons and two daughters:

  1. Sir Raufe ye Vernon of Hanwell; who died before his father, married A. St Per and they 4 sons:
    1. Rawlin; who died before his grandfather, had a son,
      1. Sir Rauf ye Vernon of Mottram, who died before his great-grandfather, had a son,
        1. young Sir Raufe
    2. Hitchcock
    3. John
    4. Thomas
  2. Richard, Parson of Stockport
  3. Michell, freeres
  4. Hugh, freeres
  5. Agnes
  6. Rose.

Then Sir Raufe's wife, Mary of Dacres, died. After her death, Sir Raufe, the old, took to wife Paramour, Maud ye Grosvenor. Maud and Sir Raufe had two sons:

  1. Rich, Bastard
  2. Rob't, Bastard

Sir Raffe Vernon of Hanwell, Rawlin his son, and Sir Raffe his son, died while Sir Raffe, the old, was still living.

Sir Richard Damory was Justice of Chester, and he agreed with old Sir Raulfe, that the young Sir Rafe (1.1.1.1.) should marry Agnes, Sir Richard's daughter and that Sir Raufe, the old, should give all his Lands &c. to Richard (2), Parson of Stockport, his son with Mary of Dacre, and Richard's heirs and so it was done.

However, Richard, the parson, gave the lands &c. back to old Sir Raufe again for the term of his life and after his decease to the young Sir Rafe (1.1.1.1.) and to Agnes his wife, and to the male heirs of their bodies. If young Rafe and Agnes had no male issue then all the Lands Etc. should go to Richard, the son of old Sir Ralfe ye Vernon of Shipbroke gotten by Maud the Grosvenor and to the male heirs of Richard's body. If Richard, son of Maud also had no male children, then all the Lands &c. should go to the right heirs of the Richard, without end.

Sir Raufe and Agnes didn't have any sons. then entret Sir Rauf the last deghten as son and heire to Richard ye Vernon, the son of old Sir Rafe and Maud. The foresaid Sir Raulfe, Richard's son died without a son of his body and so Sir Richard ye Vernon, brother to the last Sir Raufe entret as male heir and continued all his life and had issue Sir Richard who is now dead without any sons.

As already said, Sir Raufe Vernon had 3 young sons: Hitchcock, John and Thomas the quich (sic).

"Sciant prsesentes etfuturi quod ego Rad'us de Vernon senior D'n's de Shubbroc Dedi Hugoni Vernon de Quatcroft vnam placea' vasti sup' Rudheath in foedede Shubbrock ad terminum vitse suse &.C Et post decessum D'ni Hugonis volo et concedo quod mag'r Ric'us de Vernon filius me* totam prsedietam terram ad terminu' vitse suae habeat. Testib 8 D'no Will'mo de Brereton, Hugone de Dutton militib", Ric'o de Foulshurst tunc viceco' Cestrias, Adse de Bostock, Ranulfo de Merton, &c. "

Drawing of circular seal, inscribed S. RAD'I DE VERNON. Arms: A fesse.

"Note that there were no garbes on the ffesse and yet before before his death he bore the garbes on the ffesse whereby a man may well conjecture that it was after he had matched himself with Maud Grosvenor, widow to Sir John Hatton, who both have garbes in their Armes."


Sir Ralph II de Vernon, 7th Baron of Shipbrook

He lived in the reign of Edward I. He succeeded to the family property through the death without male issure of his uncle, Warin de Vernon. It is said that he survived to an age of one hundred and fifty years and was in consequence called "the old liver."

Ralph de Vernon became the seventh Baron and perhaps the most fantastic of all Vernons. According to all official English records, he lived until 1392, aged 150 years. If this fact bears out, he may well have been the oldest 'liver' in recorded history, until a few years ago when the Russians came up with a man 162 years old. Married twice and outlived most of his many great-grandchildren. He also added the 'maiden proper' on the crest of the coat-of-arms, holding a scythe in her hand and sheaves of wheat in her arm. In 1403 his grandson by his youngest son, Sir Richard the 8th Baron, was beheaded following the Battle of Shrewsbury (he was the Sir Richard Vernon made famous by Shakespeare in one of his plays), the baronage then fell to Sir Ralph 'the Younger' of Hanwell, a great-grandson of 'The Old Liver's oldest son, Sir Ralph. He died without male issue and, in 1404, it went to Sir James of Lostock and Haslington, who became the 10th Baron. [3]

Sir Ralph II de Vernon married (first) Mary, daughter of Ralph, Lord Dacre. He married (second) Maud (or Matilda) Grosvenor-Hatten, daughter of Robert Grosvenor of Budworth and widow of John Hatton.

Children of first marriage:
  1. Ralph, married Margaret de St Pierre
  2. Richard
  3. Thomas, married Joan de Lostock
  4. Rose
  5. Agatha, married to Sir Hugh Venables
  6. Nicolas
  7. Hugh
Children of second marriage:
  1. William
  2. Richard (again)
  3. Robert
  4. Matilda

Beheading of Ralph's grandson, Sir Richard 1403

Battlefield Church was erected over the site of the mass burial pit dug immediately after the battle. It was built initially as a memorial chapel, on the orders of King Henry IV and paid for by him, with prayers and masses being said continually for the dead on both sides. The chapel was replaced in 1460 by a church, which was further restored in 1862. A drain being dug in a corner of the churchyard inadvertently opened part of the burial pit, workmen being surprised by the mass of bones showing the hurried nature of the burials.
The battle itself and many of the key people involved appear in Shakespeare's Henry IV, Part 1.
Henry Percy was initially buried by his nephew Thomas Nevill, 5th Baron Furnivall at Whitchurch, Shropshire with honours, but rumours soon spread that he was not really dead. In response the King had him disinterred. His body was salted, set up in Shrewsbury impaled on a spear between two millstones in the pillory in the marketplace, with an armed guard and was later quartered and put on show in the four corners of the country. His head was sent to York and impaled on the north gate, looking towards his own lands. His quarters were sent to Chester, London, Bristol and Newcastle-on-Tyne. In November his grisly remains were returned to his widow Elizabeth. She interred them in York Minster at the right hand side of the altar.
Thomas Percy, 1st Earl of Worcester , Sir Richard Venables and Sir Richard Vernon were publicly beheaded in Shrewsbury on 23rd July and their heads publicly displayed, Thomas Percy's on London Bridge.

Sources

  1. The National Archives Website: Discovery: E 210 - Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Ancient Deeds, Series D: E 210/6450 Ralph de Vernoun, knight to Margaret late the wife of Ralph his son, (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5905846 : accessed 2 June, 2022).
  2. Ed. by John Paul Rylands, The visitation of Cheshire in the year 1580 made by Robert Glover, Somerset herald, for William Flower, Norroy king of arms, with numerous additions and continuations, including those from the visitation of Cheshire made in the year 1566, by the same herald. With an appendix, containing The visitation of a part of Cheshire in the year 1533, made by William Fellows, Lancaster herald, for Thomas Benolte, Clarenceux king of arms. And a fragment of the visitation of the city of Chester in the year 1591, made by Thomas Chaloner, deputy to the Office of arms, 1882 in London, p.202, 11 April 2014.
  3. http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/VERNON.htm#Ralph%20De%20VERNON%20(B.%20Vernon%20of%20Shipbrook)1

See also:

  • Vol. 1, Page 5: "This son inherited the possessions of his father, and lived for one hundred and fifty years--all authorities so allow, which is only the curious part of the business. They allow, too, that he espoused Mary Dacre, and had legitimate issue; but it appears there was a buxom widow (Maud Grosvenor) by whom he also had issue, and this issue, and the death of the grandson of this venerable Baron, came in for the Barony, for there was a law suit by which they contested it and got it, for the legitimate line was adjudged Haslington. We will have a gossip of these matters perchance under Hazlebadge."




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Comments: 9

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There is no evidence that this Ralph Vernon had a daughter called "Ann Victoria" (there is also no evidence that this "Ann Victoria"'s supposed husband "John Reresby Bailey" existed).
posted by C Handy
He appears to have acquired an extra wife. It's Mary Dacre and Maud Grosvenor, right? (We have a Maud Dacre, too.)
posted by Isaac Taylor
Hi folks,

I love this guy. What a hoot.

What is the source for his "new and improved" death date? It appears unsourced and the first few lines of the bio are uncertain. So, why are we certain, enough to specify an exact day and location?

There's surely going to be SOME reason he was called The Old-Liver. That's borderline unique. Is it contemporary or a synthetic label by later researchers? Is there a hint he's been conflated with a son or other descendant, and we are now de-conflating them with detective work?

If so, we ought to have ironclad sources and/or more clearly-explained deductive logic before giving the lie to his nickname, and past researchers who didn't disprove it.

There's historical mention of him outliving his own great-grandchildren, is there not? His new, merely 73-year lifespan is not particularly noteworthy, and wouldn't allow him to overlive his own great-grandchildren. So, is his new death date historical fact, or just a new fiction?

Suggestion: Perhaps having NO death date in the structured data would make more sense than an unsourced one? And then we can list all the various alleged deathdates in the bio.

Also, this profile currently has three wives connected. But only two mentioned in the bio, if I'm not mistaken (which I may be, it's dense). So one of his three wive-profiles probably needs to be merged into another... but which?

Our handwritten bio says he was married to Mary Dacre; and after she died, he had natural children by Maud Grosvenor, whom he did not marry. If so, then perhaps we ought to look carefully at the continued existence of the profile for Maud Dacre-19 who currently has most of his children. Alternately we ought to be convinced by sources that Maud is not Mary and they both must continue to exist here.

Is anyone working on this profile?

Should we put him into a project and get some more folks on it?

posted by Isaac Taylor
Still the date has not been corrected.
posted by Darla Dunkin
A birth date of 1241 and a death date of 1392 would make him 151 years old at death. That is impossible . These dates need to be corrected.

This discrepancy has been mentioned since Aug. 2015.

posted by Harry Kelly
Few people live to be 141 years old!
posted by Theodore Palmer
why death date of 1392? Do you believe he lived to be 141 yrs old ?
posted by Robert Wood
VCH Oxford says he was probably dead by 1334 (under Hanwell). http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/oxon/vol9/pp112-123 I suggest we change the death date unless we have a good reason?
posted by Andrew Lancaster
We are giving this Ralph several death dates (July 1325, April 1312, 1392, and "after 1325")!
posted by Andrew Lancaster

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