no image

Welsh Patronymic Naming Guidance

Privacy Level: Public (Green)
Date: [unknown] [unknown]
Location: [unknown]
Profile manager: Steve Bartlett private message [send private message]
This page has been accessed 1,266 times.

Patronymic Naming Guide, mostly pre-1535

This is the naming guide for those included in the Wales Ancient Kingdoms .
The Naming Standards for the Welsh are NOT the same as those for other European aristocrats. The major difference is the Last Name at Birth. Please read the guidance below.
If you have a question with regard to what to enter where, ask before doing so ... by posting a question on the G2G forum in Special Projects, and be sure to use the Wales tag.
Also feel free to contact Steve Bartlett

Last Name at Birth

Last Name At Birth SHOULD include the particle (ab, ap, or ferch) if appropriate, ''not capitalised''. Some internet sites proliferate the incorrect verch for "daughter of ". There is no letter v in Welsh. It is an anglicisation of the single f, which is pronounced v, to distinguish it from the double ff which pronounced like the English f. Occasionally one sees merch. This is a mistake as it is only correct in the plural, in the singular it should be ferch.
Unless otherwise decided, the LNAB will use the style explained in the first paragraph Patronymic Names of FamilySearch's Personal Welsh Personal Names. If there are questions about the correct LNAB, please post a question on the G2G forum in Special Projects, using the Wales tag.
If there is the Descriptor such as Fychan, meaning the Younger, or Fawr, meaning the Elder this should not be included in the LNAB, but added as a middle name. The name for such a Descriptor is an Epithet.
However, Dafydd Goch, David the Red, would be a nickname, and the son's LNAB ap Dafydd, with ap Dafydd Goch as Other Last Name.

Naming Guide

1.PREFIX FIELD:Use for title like 'Sir' or 'St'. (A man who was knighted was called Sir.) DO NOT USE for titles like 'Lord Rhys'. Don't put King, Duke, Earl here. Titles belong in the 'OTHER NICKNAMES' field. If person was a saint, use "St" or "Ste" with no punctuation.
2.PROPER FIRST NAME: This is first name at birth, in the person’s native language. It should be one word only.
3.PREFERRED NAME: This is the name of the person as they were generally known/called/referred to. It would also have a numeral (i.e. I, II, III) with it if they are known as the 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Example: Henry III of England - his proper first name is Henry, preferred name is Henry III.
4.OTHER NICKNAMES: This is where their title belongs (i.e. ‘King of England’, ‘Queen of Scots’, ‘Lord of Dunmow’, etc.). Titles do not include numbers (i.e. ‘Earl of Arundel’, not ‘3rd Earl of Arundel’). In English profiles this is also where any actual nicknames (i.e. ‘The Poor’, ‘Talvas’, ‘The Loyal’, ‘Copped Hat’, etc.) would be put (and translations such as Eléonore, Leonor, Eleanor belong). However, in Welsh patronymics these would generally be included with the OLN eg Owain ap Dafydd Fach (Owen, son of David the Small), the LNAB would be ap Dafydd. Thus distinguishing him from Owain ap Dafydd Fawr (Owen, son of Big David)
5.MIDDLE NAME:Very few people in the middle ages had a middle name, so this field should normally be blank. Do not put patronymic elements into this field. For example Owain ap Morgan ap Maredydd. LNAB is ap Morgan, no dispute. In "Other Last Name(s):", if thought necessary, one could put ap Morgan ap Maredydd, Maredydd being his grandfather, but this should preferably be in the Biography (see #6 below.
On no account should the prefix ap/ab/ferch be put in Middle Name
We have chosen to put descriptors or Welsh Epithets as they are properly called in the Middle Name field as there were rarely, if ever, middle names at that time
6.LAST NAME AT BIRTH: This is the name they had (or would have been known by) when they were born. In most cases, it is usually one word, but it also includes the prefixes "ab", "ap" and "ferch", if one was used. Include only one patronymic name. Occasionally, a person will have two names and a prefix in the LNAB field, such as "ap Llowdden Hen." If there is a string of patronymic names, only add the first one in the LNAB. The others should be added in the Biography.
7.PREFIXES IN LAST NAME AT BIRTH FIELD (LNAB):The common prefix "ab", "ap" and "ferch" before a surname goes in the LNAB field, in lower case with a space between the prefix and the patronymic it also goes with the patronymic in the Current Last Name field. NOTE: This is different from the EuroAristo and Medieval Project standards.

Confusion between "ap" and "ab" - ap is used before a consonant, eg ap Dafydd. Before a vowel it is "ab", eg ab Owain.
Confusion exists with names beginning with the letter I like Ieuan, Iestyn or Iorwerth. The pronunciation has the first letter as close to a the Y of You. Hence this is considered a consonant eg ap Iestyn.
If in doubt ask, there will always be someone to help.

We have chosen to use the prefix 'ferch,' as in Family Search not 'verch' or 'merch.' "All three terms are used to signify “daughter of”. All are correct but are used in different time periods. There being no v in the Welsh alphabet verch is an anglicizing of ferch as single f is pronounced v in Welsh. English parish clerks would write verch out of ignorance of the Welsh language. Equal lack of understanding by 20th transcribers has led to some women appearing with a nonsense LNAB of, for example, Gwenllian ap Owain roughly translated as Gwenllian son of Owen!! NOTE - No woman can have ap/ab as the first part of their LNAB.
Rather than trying to decide which is the correct spelling for each time period, we have chosen to use “ferch” as the patronymic naming convention for females." For consistency, we have chosen to follow the lead of FamilySearch. Therefore, use 'ferch' and not 'verch' or 'merch.'

8.CURRENT LAST NAME: For people who are known by last names that are commonly prefaced by prepositions ("ab," "ap," "ferch"), the Current Last Name should include that prefacing preposition, not capitalized. For nobility, the country, dukedom, etc., may also be used here, with a preposition, as, for example, 'of Powys.'
Women may take their husband’s CLN, with "gwraig" in front. Example:
A woman who married a man named Hywel ap Trahaearn could have the CLN of "gwraig Hywel ap Trahaearn." The last name at death is the name used here. However, this was not official and a wife would generally retain her LNAB even when married.
For anyone who adopted a European or British name after birth, the EuroAristo naming standard should be used. (Use the appropriate Welsh name in the LNAB and the European or British name in the CLN.
9.OTHER LAST NAME: This should include alternate last names and last name variations, separated by commas. For the Welsh, this field is very important, as there have been many spellings for the same name. Prior married names for women occur here. This is not the place for titles (those go in the Nickname field).
10.SUFFIX: These were not generally used in the Middle Ages. Modern usage includes Jr, Sr, III, IV, and so on. For kings and queens the number should go as part of the Preferred First Name instead of in the Suffix. For example, VI is not an appropriate Suffix for King George VI.
11.PUNCTUATION: NO period after prefixes like Rev or Capt or St
12.NO leeway on prefix and suffix rules.These fields cannot be used for anything else.
13.SUFFIXES IN LAST NAME: KG or KB (medieval) in suffix field only. NOTHING else.
14.TITLES:No titles in prefix or suffix fields. You can list their primary one in the OTHER NICKNAMES field. List their titles in their biography.
OTHER NICKNAMES: Put what people were called (King of Powys in OTHER NICKNAMES field.
15.ALTERNATE SPELLING OF LAST NAME: Alternate spellings go in "Other Last Names"
16.NUMERALS: These are part of the preferred name (i.e. Richard III, Henry VIII).


Return to Wales, Ancient kingdoms





Collaboration


Comments: 5

Leave a message for others who see this profile.
There are no comments yet.
Login to post a comment.
Noland-165 Liz (Noland) Shifflett
could someone update this page? There is no "Other Nicknames" field. The datafields are "Other Last Name(s)" and "Nicknames".
posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Bartlett-3702 Steve Bartlett
I'm not sure what this is about, I have

Proper First Name: Preferred Name: Other Nicknames: Middle Name: Last Name at Birth: Current Last Name: Other Last Name(s):

posted by Steve Bartlett
Noland-165 Liz (Noland) Shifflett
oh dear. You're right! I swear that the datafield was just "Nicknames" on the page I was working on... I encountered it when I created a new profile for a Welshman who was "Lord of [I forget where]" and couldn't remember what datafield the "Lord of ..." went in. Perhaps the profile page that opens when you first create a profile drops the "Other" for that name field? (Next time I create a profile, I'll try to remember to check that theory!)

Thanks for looking into it Steve.

Cheers, Liz

posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Bartlett-3702 Steve Bartlett
Edwin makes a very valid point. The "as is" creates a nightmare for anglicized Welsh. We use Caernarfon, although records say Caernarvon. Within the Wales Project it has been decided to use the Welsh spelling, and there is no v in Welsh Alphabet. The v sound is created with a single f, the f sound with a double ff.

Sellatyn was/in in the Marches near Oswestry. It is now in Shropshire - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selattyn. I sympathise with your surname spelling problem, I have a branch McMinn!!

posted by Steve Bartlett
Edwin Reffell
FamilySearch has verch not ferch in names for Welsh people in the parish register for Sellatyn, Shropshire. <ref>https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9BL-K92G-Z?i=565</ref>. I was always told to use the "as is" version. For profiles of my surname therefore the Other Last Name needs to be a page not just a field for the umpteen variations of it. The only place my gtgtgtgrandfather Joseph's marriage is easily found if found at all as Reffell is in the tree I made at Ancestry after being told the following by the yDNA project manager for surname Riffle at FamilyTreeDNA. My gtgtgtgrandfather signed his marriage record as Joseph Reffell. When zoomed that is clear. The English clerk decided the surname ought to have been Riffle instead and therefore recorded it as Riffle. Fortunately FamilySearch had not changed to its present state so I was able without having to search for hours to find the marriage recorded there as Riffle and with no mention of the bridegroom having signed his name as Reffell. It would take too long to explain which surname my ancestors are found as for which birth, baptism, census, marriage, death or probate, especially all the Josephs. It is easier to say that i have so far not found a variation which contains the letters c, j, k, m, n, q, or x in any position. Consequently I can never be sure if for example someone found as Raffell (my grandfather), Ruffold (my gtgrandfather) or Reffield (my gtgtgrandfather), etc is a Reffell ancestor or not. Their parents also hardly ever have the same surname variation for the various events. My grandparents are the "Rettell" family found in the 1939 register.My teacher told me my surname only had one -l at the end. In 2017 my nephew was asked on Facebook if he was related to the Raffell people who were the butchers where my father and grandfather were butchers. I havent checked to see if Selattyn is in England or not. In the register for Haslemere, Surrey, England there is a collection for Inniskillen "in our kingdom of Ireland." so it wouldnt surprise me if Selattyn is in Wales.
posted by Edwin Reffell
edited by Edwin Reffell

Categories: Wales | Wales, Ancient Kingdoms | Name Field Guidelines