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Surnames/tags: pre-1500 resources Profiles
Location: World Wide
Surnames/tags: pre-1500 resources Profiles
Profile managers:
John Atkinson [send private message], Joe Cochoit [send private message], and Laura Bozzay [send private message]
This page has been accessed 13,907 times.
Purpose and Scope: This page is for collecting and sharing reliable resources for pre-1500 research. The information is for everyone, however the page is only editable by members who have pre-1500 certification.
Contents |
Compilations
- These are modern secondary sources with a high level of scholarship. They should be followed unless proven incorrect by other modern sources.
- The Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England (PASE), The Department of History and the Centre for Computing in the Humanities, at King’s College, London, The Department of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Celtic Studies, University of Cambridge, August, 2010 (searchable database). (Note: This is a well sourced relational database claimed by the authors to contain all the recorded inhabitants of England from the late sixth to the late eleventh century.)
- The Henry Project: The Ancestors of king Henry II of England, by Stewart Baldwin. An exceptionally high level of scholarship with a critical analysis of all known sources. This website should be taken as the definitive word on the ancestors of Henry II. Henry II Ancestor Table Index of Ancestor Pages
- Medieval Lands by Charles Cawley. A study which attempts to provide a narrative biography of all of the noble houses of Europe cross-referenced to some original sources. Valuable because of the broad scope of the study but mostly doesn't have the in-depth investigation of individuals as some other resources in this list. Searchable.[1]
- Complete Peerage, by G.E. Cokayne is a comprehensive and authoritative source for the peerage of England. Originally published in 8 volumes between 1887 and 1898, the high level of scholarship generally holds up well until today. Though, like all works of its kind, improvements and corrections to CP are constantly being made.
- From 1910 to 1959, 'revised and expanded' versions were published. This stretched the original 8 volumes to 13. Finally, in 1998 a 14th volume of 'Additions and Corrections' was published. Many additional corrections, most of which were first noted on the SGM newsgroup, have been collected by Chris Phillips on his Medieval Genealogy site. All 14 volumes are available for download at FamilySearch.org [2]
- Royal Ancestry, by Douglas Richardson. [3]
Resource Sites Online
- Places to help you find primary records.
- Medieval and Renaissance Studies: Full Text Primary Sources A Guide to Research in Medieval and Renaissance Studies, New York University <guides.nyu.edu>
- English Regnal Calendar - Most medieval documents did not state the actual year but referred to the reign of the king. This online calendar will allow you to quickly convert to the correct year.
- Some Notes On Medieval English Genealogy, by Chris Phillips. Website. An extraordinarily useful collection of links and primary resources. Including:
- Medieval Genealogy Resources, by Joe Cochoit. Website. A handy collection of links to the primary sources used in medieval genealogy.
- British History Online "British History Online is a digital library of key printed primary and secondary sources for the history of Britain and Ireland, with a primary focus on the period between 1300 and 1800."
English Medieval Primary Records
- Domesday Book Online, searchable by county, Domesday Book images kindly made available by Professor J.J.N. Palmer. Images may be reused under a Creative Commons BY-SA licence - please credit Professor J.J.N. Palmer and George Slater, Site by Anna Powell-Smith. Domesday data created by Professor J.J.N. Palmer, University of Hull, (open source): PostgreSQL, PostGIS, GeoDjango, and OpenStreetMap.
- Inquisitions Post Mortem: https://inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/ English inquisitions post mortem (IPMs) from c. 1236 to 1509. See also Chris Philp's list of IPM resources. http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sources/ipm.shtml
- Patent Rolls: https://sites.google.com/site/cochoit/home/patent-rolls
- Fine Rolls: Fine Rolls are records relating to the financial affairs of the king. They frequently touch on issues of genealogical interest as they can record transfers of property which were held of the king. Also, writs of Diem Clausit Extremum were recorded in the Fine Rolls making this a key source for dates of death for medieval persons.
- Feet of Fines: (Pedes Finium) https://sites.google.com/site/cochoit/home/feet-of-fines
- Anglo-American Legal Tradition (AALT) Website: Documents from Medieval and Early Modern England from the National Archives in London
- Wills - Index A downloadable spreadsheet of over 28000 testators mentioned in some wills of the period 1399-1540: this is derived from works published up to the year 2000. Where all this information is available, the main spreadsheet gives the name of the testator, the date of the will, the date it was proved and where, and the source (abbreviated name) from which the information was obtained. The spreadsheet and key to sources can be found at http://www.ricardianresources.online/2_testatorsindex.php.
- Wills- Yorkshire a PDF of transcripts of 89 English wills proved in the Prerogative Court of York in the period 1477-1499, mostly of people who lived in Yorkshire: http://www.ricardianresources.online/3_york_wills.php.
British Isles: Scotland
- Called the POMs. This is a searchable collection of charters from 1093-1314, http://db.poms.ac.uk/search/
- Records of the Parliaments of Scotland to 1707 http://www.rps.ac.uk/ Records from 1235, show records in original Latin, French, Scots, and Modern English translation, or both side by side. Browse by reign or use Advanced Search.
British Isles: Ireland
- Please see this collection of sources: Historical Sources of Ireland
- Annals of Ulster compiled in 15th Century from oral and written traditions starting in 461 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annals_of_Ulster The Annals are said to have been copied verbatim from the sources so are a boon to historians and linguists alike.
British Isles: England
- Gildas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gildas best known for De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae, history of Britain, the only widely accepted source for history of the post-Roman period written by a near-contemporary
- Anglo-Saxon Chronicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle Organized by year; the earliest dated at 60 BC (the annals' date for Caesar's invasions of Britain), and historical material follows up to the year in which the chronicle was written, at which point contemporary records begin. These manuscripts collectively are known as the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. Written in 9th Century in Old English. Many copies made and dispersed throughout England each being updated independently. 1154 is latest update known. Written from perspective of the invaders. 9 Surviving manuscripts are known about.
- The Soldier in later Medieval England http://www.medievalsoldier.org/dbsearch/ Database sponsored by Universities of Reading and Southampton of late medieval soldiers, based on primary records.
- http://landedfamilies.blogspot.com Nick Kingsley's site He is a careful researcher who cites his sources.
European Continent
- Monumenta Germaniae Historica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monumenta_Germaniae_Historica "carefully edited and published primary sources (mostly in Latin, no translations)... for the study of German history, but includes other areas - Britain, Czech lands, Poland, Austria, France, Low Countries, Italy, Spain etc" Often see them used as sources with abbreviation MGH in The Henry Project or Medieval Lands etc. Online version containing all volumes up to 2010 here http://www.dmgh.de
- Vatican Online 15th Century Manuscript Archives: http://digi.vatlib.it/news/
- https://www.gutenberg.org/ Many ancient texts have been translated and digitized here. Some are searchable.
- Germany: http://ofb.genealogy.net/ takes you to family books by city location that were mostly build on original records
- Genealogie Mittelalter website in German by Manfred Hiebl, with information about German dynasties from medieval period. Usually has a separate profile page for each individual, and cites mostly recent secondary sources, including excerpts from some of these. However where these sources differ, it's not always clear why one date/relationship is emphasised over another. Often this website is the only way to access recent secondary sources that might not otherwise be readily available. http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/ Note - Has links to similar sites centred on Frankish/Byzantine/Plantagenet families and others, but these are sometimes not as detailed and other sources may be preferable.
- Das Haus Brabant: Genealogie der Herzoge von Brabant und der Landgrafen von Hessen, vol. 1 900s to Philipp the Great by Carl Knetsch - https://archiv.ub.uni-marburg.de/ubfind/Record/urn:nbn:de:hebis:04-eb2015-0060 In German but genealogical information is relatively easy to understand. Although published in 1917 this is still a recommended genealogy of the family of the Dukes of Brabant and Landgraves of Hesse. Each person has a mini-biography citing sources including primary sources.
- France: French records that have been published online. http://ddebus.free.fr/indexe.htm I like the surname to village database
- http://www.moselle-genealogie.net/index.php?lng=fr&tconfig=0 see archives online to the right side of screen
- http://www.freesurnamesearch. com/search/france.html French Revolution Digital Archive
- http://www.genverre.com access only for paid members. This site is specific to glass and crystal makers and their craft. Multiple databases. User donated ones are reviewed and notes made by review group. Other databases from physical acts and other official documents. Laura Bozzay is an officer in the Organization and can access all databases.
- http://jeanjacques.villemag.free.fr/ généalogie des rois de France arbre généalogique des rois de France, mérovingiens, carolingiens, robertiens, capétiens, valois, bourbons, orlé...
- http://www.archives57.com/ index.php/recherches/archives- en-ligne
- Chronicon Hanoniense (Gislebert de Mons) (12th century) : https://archive.org/details/lachroniquedegis00gisl
- http://gallica.bnf.fr/accueil/?mode=desktop : Gallica, the Bibliothèque Nationale de France. Has many genealogy books available.
- Histoire Généalogique de la Maison Royale de France, des pairs, grands officiers de la Couronne... by Père Anselme. USE WITH CAUTION for medieval genealogies. Whole collection available here.
- Savoy (Savoie, Savoia) Previté-Orton, Charles William. 1912. The early history of the House of Savoy (1000-1233). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press" Digital image: Internet Archive. https://archive.org/details/earlyhistoryofho00prevuoft Appears to be really well-researched using primary and secondary sources. Perhaps a bit dated?
- 1492: http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/1492.exhibit/Intro.html an Exhibit of the Library of Congress, Washington, DC
- Spain - Codice de Roda - one of the early genealogies of Spanish rulers written from a 'Christian' perspective. The article is in Spanish and Codice in Latin. Lacarra, José M., "Textos navarros del códice de Roda", Estudios de Edad Media de la Corona de Aragón, I (1945) : 194-283. Online , Universidad Zaragoza, http://www.unizar.es/cema/recursos/193_284.pdf
- Spain - Las dinastías reales de España en la Edad Media - A modern version of genealogies of all the medieval rulers of countries that eventually made up Spain and Portugal, written by Jamie de Salazar y Acha, a respected Spanish historian and genealogist, published in 2021 but appears free to download. In Spanish but relatively easy to understand with some help from an online translation service. (Madrid : Real Academia de la Historia, 2021). Electronic edition, Agencia Estatal Boletín Oficial del Estado, https://www.boe.es/biblioteca_juridica/publicacion.php?id=PUB-DH-2021-233
Quality Websites - Use with Caution
- Best used as a guide to further research.
- The Bartrum Project presents Peter C. Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies AD 300- 1500". This work was a continuation of earlier publications. As described in 'The Bartrum "Welsh Genealogies"' by Darrell Wolcott (accessed September 15, 2017 at Center for the Study of Ancient Wales): 'So long as today's researchers understand that Bartrum was NOT attempting to portray actual and feasible family charts, but limited his purpose to summarizing the material found in other manuscripts, his work can be very helpful. It should not, however, be cited as the principle source to "prove" any asserted facts.'
- Genealogics.org - Personal website of Leo van de Pas. Large database generally created with quality secondary sources. It has the advantage frequent error correction by contributors to SGM newsgroup. Like all sites of its kind, some errors are inevitable and it is best to confirm the information directly from quality secondary and primary sources.
- Our Royal, Titled, Noble, & Commoner Ancestors and Cousins, Personal website of Marlyn Lewis. Large database generally created with a mix of quality secondary sources and from sources of lesser quality. While often useful as a guide, it is also known to contain numerous errors. All data derived from this website needs to be confirmed by quality secondary and primary sources.
Sources to Avoid / Known Frauds
- WikiTree category compiling known fraudulent family trees and the genealogists that fabricated them.
- Royalty for Commoners, by Roderick W. Stuart. Seemingly authoritative and similar in structure to Magna Carta Sureties and Ancestral Roots, this publication is filled with unproven speculation, and disproved lines. Do not use.
- Nicolas Viton de Saint-Allais (author of Nobiliaire Universel de France and numerous other genealogy books): Viton de Saint-Allais's genealogy work is considered "of poor value", and should only be accepted with extreme caution. Contains approximations and some artificial connections. Do not use for pre-1500 profiles.
- Jean-Baptiste-Pierre Jullien de Courcelles (Dictionnaire Universel de la Noblesse de France), while his reputation is not as bad Nicolas Viton de Saint-Allais's, Jullien de Courcelles bought Saint-Allais's practice and continued his work, and for this reason should be used with caution. Do not use for pre-1500 profiles.
Other WikiTree Links and Resources
Full Citations
- Formatted full references for your copy-paste ease of use.
- ↑ Cawley, Charles. Medieval Lands: A Prosopography of Medieval European Noble and Royal Families, Online at Foundation for Medieval Genealogy Website (accessed 20xx).
- ↑ Cokayne, George Edward ed. Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, 2nd edition in 14 volumes. (London,1910-1998).
- ↑ Richardson, Douglas. Royal Ancestry: A Study In Colonial And Medieval Families, in 5 vols. (Salt Lake City, Utah, 2013).
Pre-1500 Help Aids
- Translation Tools
- Latin to English/English to Latin text translatior Translate Latin text to English by typing or copy/pasing text. Will also translate other languages. May have better accuracy rate than Google Translate
- Old English (Anglo Saxon) to Modern English Translator, Website developed by www.blueenginewebdevelopment.co.uk (Online translation engine)
- Calendar Tools
- A medieval English calendar, version of the Julian calendar, as used in England, covering the 11th to 16th centuries, "SOME NOTES ON MEDIEVAL ENGLISH GENEALOGY" (Website)
- Maps
- Britain in the Middle Ages : Wikipedia, Includes information about the division of kingdoms in the middle ages by period, includes some medieval maps (images)
- Maps of Britain and Ireland’s ancient tribes, kingdoms and DNA by Sandra Rimmer for Ancestry - Genealogy & DNA, (for reference)
Collaboration
- Login to request to the join the Trusted List so that you can edit and add images.
- Private Messages: Contact the Profile Managers privately: John Atkinson, Joe Cochoit, and Laura Bozzay. (Best when privacy is an issue.)
- Public Comments: Login to post. (Best for messages specifically directed to those editing this profile. Limit 20 per day.)
- Public Q&A: These will appear above and in the Genealogist-to-Genealogist (G2G) Forum. (Best for anything directed to the wider genealogy community.)
If there is no support from removing the entire statement, then I think Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands should be placed elsewhere. Compared to the other works under Compilations, his is still quite inconsistent as to the quality of sources cited.
Perhaps the FOF pages of Chris Phillips should also be in that category. BTW I also like this collection of primary sources: https://mrsh.unicaen.fr/scripta/accueil.html Concerning good secondary sources many are of course books (Sanders, Keats-Rohan, Richardson, Farrer, etc.) Chat GPT is perhaps now the best Latin translator?
edited by Andrew Lancaster
Should History of Parliament be included?
Cheers, Susie
Should we talk about the section headings? I'm confused about them. How do we expect the reader will use this page? Would it make sense to organize headers by region and time period?
edited by Chris Whitten
Maybe there needs to be a wider discussion about how all the source lists fit together. Currently there are project sources lists, pre-1700 source lists, and all the Source Space Pages started by Rick Pierpont and maybe others as well. Particularly as Kay points out in the comment below, that the same source can be mentioned in different lists but with different ideas about the value or reliability.
Just off the top of my head, perhaps this list reverts to just being where to find Pre-1500 primary or original sources online, and any secondary sources are left for the other lists? Definitely then headers could be via region/country with maybe some further organised into time periods.
Thinking about the pre-1700 source lists at the same time is a good idea, especially because this page is categorized with them. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Reliable_Sources_for_Pre-1700_Profiles
The lists in that category have a clear purpose and intended usage. Members are supposed to check the lists to see if a source they plan to use for a pre-1700 profile is on the list.
Most of them also have a standard format with three subsections:
To throw this out there ... maybe the Medieval Project should create Space:Medieval Project Reliable Sources and use these three sections, with subsections for regions as John describes. Then see whatever is left on this page and think about whether to integrate it elsewhere or create a new page with a specific intended usage, and then merge this page into the Medieval Project Reliable Sources list.
If this page was converted into a straight-forward list of what sources are considered reliable and unreliable, it might then be easier to reference in instructions on https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Pre-1500_Work_without_a_Badge
That is, we might be able to more simply say that if someone wants to add or remove something on a pre-1500 profile and is asking for a Pre-1500 Certified member to do it, they should first check this list to see if their source is reliable.
???
I, with Laura, originally created this page primarily as a finding aid, and as a way to demonstrate the types of resources which should be used for medieval profiles. Most of it is based on the list of Medieval Genealogy Resources I keep on google groups. When I joined WikiTree the vast majority of medieval profiles were unsourced or sourced to low quality secondary sources. These sources are meant to get people closer to the primary source. How do we know the parents of someone born in the 14th century? How do we know birth dates? If I say someone was born before 13 August 1325, where does that date come from? The level of scholarship on WikiTree has increased tremendously in the last 7 years, and pages like this probably help.
I am still very protective of this page. It is not meant to be edited by anyone with a pre-1500 badge (I am sort of surprised at how many people have been added to the trusted list). We take suggestions from people, the majority of which are either inappropriate or too narrowly focused to be added to this page.
I do not see much value in dividing this page into Reliable Sources and Unreliable Sources. That is not really the purpose of the page, which is to help people do medieval research by pointing them to primary sources and high quality secondary sources. If I was to create a Reliable Sources page for the Medieval Project, it would look very different than this and not list the vast majority of resources on this page (something closer to the Magna Carta Project Reliable Sources).
"That is, we might be able to more simply say that if someone wants to add or remove something on a pre-1500 profile and is asking for a Pre-1500 Certified member to do it, they should first check this list to see if their source is reliable." I don't think this will ever be possible. There are thousands of acceptable sources and there is no way to list them all. A list of common unreliable sources does have some utility by making it easy to point someone to a reason their source is not being accepted for making a change to a profile.
It would not make sense to organise the page by period: many of the sources straddle periods. There is already quite a bit of organisation by geographical area, but a number of the sources are not region-specific.
As Joe has said, this is not a "reliable sources" page of the kind developed by some other Projects, with a distinction between Reliable and Use-with-a-degree-of-caution. Its audience is pre-1500-badged members who are experienced genealogists, and who are expected to be able to discriminate between reliable sources and helpful sources to be used with some care: unlike Project pages on reliable sources which are designed largely to help less experienced members. And for the medieval period, even primary sources often need to be used with care - obvious examples are ages given in Inquisitions Post Mortem and allegations made in medieval court cases.
As a user, I would very much prefer not to see the structure of this page undergo substantial change. I am just grateful to Joe and Laura for putting this together.
edited by Michael Cayley
And for continental Europe, modern country divisions anyway do not make sense for the medieval period.
edited by Michael Cayley
Joe and Michael, I'm not trying to take a useful page away from anyone. :-) The main reason I'm getting involved is that I think we should clarify and simplify things for WikiTreers who aren't Pre-1500 Certified.
I also have an interest in distinguishing between these three types of pages on WikiTree:
1.) Community-wide style rules and policies. These are agreed-upon by the community and documented on help pages.
2.) Project-specific style rules. These are managed under the authority of projects. (The pages in Category:Reliable_Sources_for_Pre-1700_Profiles should be of this type.)
3.) Privately-managed pages.
If the audience for this page is "pre-1500-badged members who are experienced genealogists" it could be kept as-is, and type #3, privately-managed. I could also envision it being used to train members who want to become pre-1500 certified, perhaps even as part of a WikiTree Academy course.
Back to non-badged WikiTreers. Right now, we are sending them mixed messages regarding what to do when they think they have something to contribute to a pre-1500 profile. Unsourced RNBs, for example, ask them to add sources. Various pages instruct them to post comments on the profiles. They're told elsewhere that comments are a bad way to do it. The instructions on https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Pre-1500_Work_without_a_Badge are hard to follow and point people here. I'd like to simplify those instructions and unify the messages on RNBs and elsewhere.
P.S. I just realized how I got to this page in the first place. The second paragraph on Help:Pre-1500_Profiles says "Please review our page on reliable resources for pre-1500 research" and points here. That implies that this is a type #1 help page, or at least a type #2 project style page. This is the sort of thing I need to fix.
edited by Chris Whitten
That is probably off topic for this conversation. Coming back to topic, one "constitutional" option for this page might be to make the Medieval Project one of the managers, with Joe Cochoit (a Project Co-ordinator of the Project) taking lead responsibility for maintaining it, perhaps in conjunction with John Atkinson (one of the Leaders of the Project) who is another of the current managers of the page. I don't know how Joe and John would feel about that. But it would help "fix" the issue of what type of page it is.
edited by Michael Cayley
Also note that the England project lists Our Royal, Titled.... as an unreliable source rather than use with caution https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:England_Project_Reliable_Sources#Unreliable_Sources_or_.27Actually_Not_Sources_At_All.27
edited by Kay (Sands) Knight
FYI The Magna Carta Project also regards Our Royal, Titled… as unreliable.
The Magna Carta Project regards Bartrum as a source with lots of good information, but to be used with care. The position for Bartrum is the same for the Wales Project - see https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Wales_Pre_1500_Resources - and it is the Wales Project which takes the lead on medieval Welsh profiles. This means that Bartrum should not be seen as in the class of "unreliable sources". Used sensibly, it is a valid source.
edited by Michael Cayley
The website cited here is more user friendly - https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1587574/bartrum-welsh-genealogies-online-at-geni-com?show=1589257#a1589257
Edited to add: it's also not on geni.com.
edited by Jillaine Smith
Best used as a guide to further research. The Bartrum Project presents Peter C. Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies AD 300- 1500". This work was a continuation of earlier publications. As described in 'The Bartrum "Welsh Genealogies"' by Darrell Wolcott (accessed September 15, 2017 at Center for the Study of Ancient Wales): 'So long as today's researchers understand that Bartrum was NOT attempting to portray actual and feasible family charts, but limited his purpose to summarizing the material found in other manuscripts, his work can be very helpful. It should not, however, be cited as the principle source to "prove" any asserted facts.' Our version comes with much needed caution the geni version does not and without doing a lot of research not sure it is faithful to the original work. We defer to primary sources and the genie url does not appear to be that. i will sk John and Joe what they think
But I did click through to http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id139.html which appears to be doing a good job of checking and correcting the Bartrum Project's list. Seems like it should be checked out to see if it's worthy of its own listing here. At a minimum, the section on Bartrum's project should include a link to this Ancient Wales Studies project *about* Bartrum's project.
the source we were asked to add clearly shows it is on geni.com Re: The Bartrum Project The website cited here is more user friendly - https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1587574/bartrum-welsh-genealogies-online-at-geni-com?show=1589257#a1589257
posted 3 days ago by Stuart Awbrey
edited by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
I think we should add the link to the Geni version of Bartrum's tables as an alternative way to access them, but retaining the current link to the University version and the warning from Darrell Wolcott.
Bartrum published genealogical tables of Welsh families from 300-1500, then later volumes from 1500-1600 and then maybe there were also corrections. I'm not a member of Geni, but my understanding is they have simply re-published the tables but in such a way that families, indexes etc that might have been in different volumes are listed together. They are presenting exactly what is in the University version just in a different arrangement. There is no correcting of whatever errors Bartrum's work may contain, which is why they should remain under the Use with Caution section.
edited by John Atkinson
edit - changed "300-1500 and 1500-1600" to just "publications". From the Geni page: "...Welsh Genealogies AD 300-1400, in 8 volumes, and in 1983 he published Welsh Genealogies AD 1400-1500, in a further 18 volumes...."
edited by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Rationale would be they are using the Aberystwyth material by permission and the original material carries the CC BY 4.0 designation which allows free use and modification.
I agree with John. There is not an issue of comparing family trees between the sites. It is simply a source to access the Bartrum material in a hugely more user friendly format.
https://www.wkgo.de/personen/suchedetail?sw=gnd:GNDPFB6085
Regards,
Kevin
I saw you created Otto-3281. I don't know exactly if the source is credible, but I'm asking myself where's the point in creating such a profile, if there's basically nothing to tell which could not have been mentioned in the son's profile?
Kind regards from Black Forest
edited by Florian Straub
edited by Anne Rees
edited by Florian Straub
https://pure.aber.ac.uk/portal/en/datasets/bartrum-genealogical-project(40837b6f-1887-4afd-9c6e-9b7e3a122693).html
Since I didn't put that resource there, I am not sure what was originally intended. It would not be a very easy to use source.
A couple of years ago, the university switched from http to https and all the URLs with http broke. Then they took the entire Bartrum Project offline. Stuart Awbrey of the Wales Project contacted them & if I recall, the reason given was to make higher quality images. The link you found appears to be the result of that.
What is the policy/your advice on creating profiles for pre-1500 historical people whom we know exist but for whom we know we won't get genealogical sources the way we would like them, but we want them as an historical lynchpin in an hypothesis we're working on?
Example: Guillaume Tirel, well-known chef to the Valois Kings 1310-1395.
Wikipedia provides references to wine expert Hugh Johnson and Tirel's own works in translation, &c.--not genealogically sourced, but a good-enough surety to get to paper. As voiced elsewhere, better a name than no name.
I would like to create the profile, but I want to reference it with Wikipedia, knowing that the sources may not even be out there.
What's your recommendations?
Thanks
Mike
I guess my question is, do we know his ancestry or descendants? WikiTree is after all a genealogy website with a goal of connecting everyone to a single tree. If the profile is only meant to provide a wikipedia style biography with no genealogical detail, it would be better to link to the wikipedia page.
Even if you could, as you state you are working on an hypothesis, it might be better to start on a free-space page. Then you could have that reviewed and once you can create or have someone else create the profile/s it should be easier enough to copy/paste from a free-space page to a profile page.
I would think that pre-1500 Chinese resources are so out of our experience, having access to, and ability to interpret that it would be best if it was its own separate free-space page. If you or anyone else creates such a page we can certainly link to it.
I found a reference for a pre-1500 profile here http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_193_5.shtml and shows image of original here http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_193_5/IMG_0602.htm
Profile is Le_Woodward-1 in Warwickshire, England. The record and matches up well with sources and information for the profile.
edited by Allen (Woodard) Jensen
edited by Allen (Woodard) Jensen
Resource Sites Online "Some Notes On Medieval English Genealogy, by Chris Phillips. "
ScotlandsPeople is on the list of reliable sources for Scotland https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Scotland_-_Reliable_Sources
edited by John Atkinson
Government controlled archives at every level and universities have been digitizing massive amounts of records in the past decade. There are also some private archives that have done it, like the archive of the Dukes of Alba (I think it is officially a foundation now.) There are lots of military records, land transactions, legal documents of all kinds, wills etc etc. If your family were "hildalgos" (kinda like the untitled landed gentry in England) there are lots of records pertaining to people proving the right to claim this, which was important because hidalgos were exempt from certain taxes. Military orders are also a great source of records. Because of the Spanish history of the "reconquista" a regular requirement was to prove that you were from an "old Christian" family, e.g. to enter the military, government jobs, the church, university..... Many of these records contain contemporary copies (handwritten) of parish registers. Those are mostly post medieval, but many provide pedigrees that allow you to track back.
This is a Spanish Government on-line guide to genealogical resources: http://www.bne.es/es/Micrositios/Guias/Genealogia/
There were a lot of very serious historians in Spain working on family history. I think the trend now is away from it, but all those publications are still available. The Spanish Association for Hidalgos has been publishing a very serious journal called "Hidalguía" since 1953. Pre-digitization there were also a lot of printed catalogues of archival holdings, much like in the UK.
I am happy to slowly start entering some of the resources I am familiar with if there is a place to put them. However, most of them will only be accessible for people with some command of Spanish.
I hesitate to say this but some of the Spanish (and English) language Wikipedia articles for pre-1500 Spanish nobles are very well researched using recent sources, some of which again are in full-text. If nothing else they can provide a guide as to where to find further information. See for instance the article for Gonzalo Nunez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_N%C3%BA%C3%B1ez_de_Lara
You need to be careful of some of the Spanish nobility articles in Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands, he often uses out dated sources.
Pre-1500 Spanish Resource Page is ok as it is the only thing I can't change after creating it.
I was actually thinking about the title. Most of the resources I am aware of are not specific to pre-1500. Like I said, they are mostly databases like the National Archives. You can find pre-1500 primary resources within them, but you can find lots of other stuff as well. I am not aware of many exclusively pre-1500 resources for Spain. (They may exist, I just don't know them.) So perhaps this has to be just a "Spanish" resources page???
Maria
It is a specific focus not a general resource page.
https://eudocs.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Spain:_Historical_Collections
Please find here the correct link http://www.moselle-genealogie.net
With kind regards, Carolina
Cheers, Liz
This page is for collecting and sharing reliable resources for pre-1500 research. The information presented is available to all Wikitree members, however the page is only editable by members who have qualified for the pre-1500 badge. Click here for information on how to get pre-1500 certification.
There is a link on the page that does not show up when I posted what I copied here. I think that does what you suggested. Let me know if that is not what you wanted
Sources: These are the sources I am using: London Metropolitan Archives and Guildhall Library Manuscripts Section, Clerkenwell, London, England. Reference # M59172/1A; will # 120.
Hamilton, Rosanna, comp. British Chancery Records, 1386-1558 [database on line]. Provo, UT. Original source: List of Chancery Proceedings. Public Records Office Lists and Indees Volumes. Date 1515-1518, Vol 5 pg 82 bundle 410.
Donald McDonald
1234567890 1234567890
(Coding is in green on the source page at Space:Medieval_Lands#Bibliography.)
Anglo-American Legal Tradition: Ten million images of original documents http://aalt.law.uh.edu/
Searchable databases:
Common Pleas http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40_Indices.html
Kings/Queens Bench http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/KB27Indices/KB27Indices.html
WAALT http://www.uh.edu/waalt/index.php/Main_Page
This morning I came across a profile using Our Royal, Titled, Noble, & Commoner Ancestors and Cousins as their source. When I checked the information on that website against its cited source, I found, yet again, that the information they were attributing to that source was nowhere to be found.
Unreliable Sources says "Marlyn Lewis also gives information, with Richardson as an apparent source, which is not actually in Richardson, especially on dates and places. ... Avoid giving Marlyn Lewis as a source so far as possible."
Perhaps as John Atkinson suggested some time ago, it needs to be removed or moved to an Unreliable Sources section?
edited by Maryann (Thompson) Hurt
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Magna_Carta_Project_Reliable_Sources
I've just noticed lately that Darryl is using more sources that are debatable such as Clan Macfarlane website https://www.clanmacfarlanegenealogy.info/ and even though we do say to use Peerage.com with caution I think it is better to delete it altogether?