Unknown Leman (abt. 1025)

Richard b 1135 d 1157 John b1154 d1193 Eldred b1190 d 1220

Thisobviously is in conflict with the information you have, so who know?

also in the Doomsday book is mentioned Lymen was once a hamlet of kent county,'record in hampshire' the kings land,Bosmore Hundred 2 1/2 hides (250 acre) in Hayling Island. Leman held them in parcenary of King Edward. Usurped by Harold who coverted Soberton into a royal manor. 150a plowland, 1demense,1villein, 8 cottagers.

Soberton still exists , a small village in Hampshire, and Hayling Island is in Hampshire. So perhaps our Soberton was named after the place or vica versa?

I have an appointment to visit the Southampton Archives office next week and hope to find out some more, naturally I will let you know if I find anything interesting.

If you would like more information on the Leamons from me to my great g g g grandparents who married in London 1815, which is as far I have reached with actual documentation, I would be pleased to share this.

Great information! And yippee, I am also delighted in myself for concluding that Soberton, Osbert and Richard were nor born at Beauwisberg, and "suggestingthat the next gen may or may not have been born there! Okay so it wasn't Cumberland after all. Your info looks very credible, and is certainly as well founded as any - here is how they stack up (there are more):

Name Your Mine Heagren Washburn date dated date date Soberton 1050/80 1050 1050? 1110 Osbert 1100 1074 1074? 1130 Richard 1135 1110 1235 1150 John 1154 1146 1259 1170 Eldred 1190 1183 1283 1190

of these, Washburn Tree is exactly 20 years between generations, which is not the norm. Most geneologists will use abt 30 years on average - I did a review of my own Tree and sure enough, over sevearl gens an average is very close to 30 years, obviously depending on whether the person in question was the youngest or oldest of several children. I don't recall exactly how I came up with my list, but I expect I have some averages somewhere, which I have slightly weighted according to other "factors of credibility" in the respective Trees. From Osb to Eldred, yours is very "nicely" random (good) with gaps of 35;19;36 years. I like it! So what is your number for Soberton? - I seem to have lost it!

Regarding the location of Soberton, it fits well with the other Mann manorial locations. I have a few high rez maps of England, Soberton [usually named after HIM instead of the other way around - also in that time scale, it would have been around for some time before he got it (Domesday Era)].. On my map is is located (get this) at the centre of the Mean or Meon Valley -sounds a bit like Man doesn't it. I haven't yet located Hyling Island, but it will show up!

These people were SAXONS, and according to many historians, the LE (and also DE) were very often self-added to peoples names as a sign of being on "politically correct terms" with the new Norman overlords. Not exactly a dumb move! The origin of Man is quite simply "man". When pronounced, Leman can become leeman, Leaman, Leyman, Lyman rather easily (something like Breier becoming Brewer, Brewster) and we must accomodate the likely fact that many of the "reistrars" were not extremely literate, nor were their masters!

I am drooling to hear the results of your visit to Soberton! As for your lineage through London (1815) I am certainly interested - there is always a small "jewel" in every rockpile!

I have searched for and found several Lyman/LeMan Family Trees on the internet and most (but not all) place Soberton at about 1050 AD in Beauwisberg, Kent which was a few miles SE of Deal. (Location provided by Kent Historical Society), which is some distance in those days from Southampton. That being said, a Soberton of a generation or two later could very well have moved to the Southampton area as the family seemed to be prosperous enough to expand just about all over SE Kent, owning several Manors in that area (Bonnington, Adlington, Broad Oaks, Bredgar and others apparently). Of the Trees with later birth dates for Soberton's birth, the generation gaps are generally very short (quite often only about 20 years; 30 years is a more accepted generation gap by most geneologists, which would suggest that the 1050+/- date may be more accurate - if there is any such thing as accuracy in the very early records of non-royalty families.

I beleve that Soberton and his son (Osbert) may have been from Cumberland, and Osbert's son Richard was likely the first generation born at Beauwisberg. These "older" generations were of the name "Leman", and the spelling usually becomes "Lyman" in the late 1100's with Eldrid 1183. After Eldrid (he is s/o John; s/o Richard) the spelling is Lyman for two or three generations, and thereafter sort of "fluctuates" between the two spellings. Further along in time we come to Espilon LeMan/Lyman whose sons John and Saloman have created some confusion by both (and also a son or two) marrying the same woman - Johannah Trethewey (family from Corwall). The exact lineage seems to be open to interpretation and 'wishful thinking' as to just who is the son of whom, and just who married this very popular woman! The sons of Saloman (but also possibly his brother John (1430) were John, Thomas and William are seen to go their seperate ways, John 1456 to Broad Oak near Canterbury, Thomas to the Navestoke area NE corner of London, and (I forget just exactly where William went) William's descendants probably to Viginia New England. Thomas of London (Navestoke) seems to be the Thomas LeMan who raised such a religious ruckus that the Sheriff of London had him burned at the stake abt 1519 in faraway Smithfield, Cumberland (full circle to Cumberland). Tom's grandkids however seem to have seen the 'dark side' of the light and also proceeded to America, also I believe into Virginia. [I'm doing all of this from my now failing(?) memory so a few details are lost to my "file pile" of disorganized printouts]

The John Le Man of abt1456 of Beauwisberge, I believe is the John Man of abt 1457 of Broad Oak, "Knight, Alderman and Keeper of the West Gate at Canterbury.

Sometime about 1350 there was a William Man born of the Beauwisberg line (born 1351-1381; Knights Templar, Bedfordshire, England) who rode with the good King Richard "Lionheart" Plantagenet in the Crusade to Jerusalem. He so distinguished himself that he was gifted the Manor and Lands at Bredgar, Kent [still existing in somewhat modified form, and still called Mann's Manor]. This Bredgar branch of the family is recorded by the DE Havilland family research to have, in their later generations, several Manors in that part of the country, including Bonnington, Adlington, Sweet-Arden, and others). Bonnington (called Bonitone in the Domesday Book) was acquired sometime after 1526 from Sir (Thomas?) Hales who had bought it himself in 1526 from (?)Hioles(sp? something like that) whose family had it listed as theirs in the Domesday List - (the entire lineage are Saxons, not mixed with the Normans) by one Sir Christopher Mann of Canterbury - again the big circle comes back together! Sir Christopher is likely the son, or younger brother of James Man, one of the sons of our previously noted John 1456/57 Keeper of the Gate. This family of Man lineage descends to Scituate, Mass Manns.