According to John Burke's Commoners, she's the daughter of this Robert de Holland and sister of Thomas de Holland. [1][2]"whose wife was Joan Holland, sister of the Earl of Kent" [3][4]
Joan married three times:
Sir Hugh Dutton of Dutton, Cheshire, died aged 50 in 1 Edward III, 1326, with whom she had children:
Sir Thomas Dutton of Dutton, born in 1314;
William Dutton, parson of Thornton in 22 Edward III;
Geoffrey Dutton;
Robert Dutton;
Edmund Talbot of Bashall;
Sir John Radcliffe of Urdeshall in Lancashire;
Marriages
First married Sir Edmund Talbot left at his decease, before 4 Edward II.", 1311, meaning she must have married Talbot first, as it states in the Talbot account. It also states Talbot had 4 sons.[5] In 1311 the heir of Sir Edmund Talbot was stated to hold 1 plough-land in Hapton by the eighth part of a knight's fee, 13d. rent, and suit to the court of Clitheroe" [6]
"In the De Lascy Inquisition of 1311, it was found that Johanna, late wife of Edmund Talbot, held two carucates of land in Risseton, by the fourth part of a knight's fee, a yearly rent of is., and suit to the Court of Clyderhou."[7]
"The Plea Rolls also mention an early Fine, 7 Edw. II., de Manerio de Weston, 3 mess., 4acr. terr‘_&c. in Haulton, between Hugo de Dutton et Johanna uxor ejus, et Roberto de Dutton-H." [10]
Third Marriage to "Sir John de Radcliffe. Founder of the Ordsall branch of the Radcliffe family. Third son of Richard de Radcliffe, of Radcliff Tower, and younger brother of Sir Robert, returned in 1334, and again as his colleague in this Parliament. Died 1358." [11][12] "who died in the 32nd year [1358-59] of the same reign" [13]
Son "Richard de Radcliffe, of Ordsal, esquire, succeeded his father in 1358" [14]
At York, on the Quindene of St Michael, 10 Edward III, which was 6 October, 1336, a fine was made between the abbot of Whalleye, plaintiff, by Robert de Plesington put in his place, and John de Radeclif and Joan his wife, deforciants of a messuage, 2 carucates of land, 20 acres of meadow, and 6 acres of wood in Bylyngton, and of a moiety of the manor of Bylyngton. John and Joan acknowledged the said tenements and moiety to be the right of the abbot and his church of St Benedict, Whalleye, for which the abbot gave them 10li.[15]
Sources
↑ A genealogical and heraldic history of the commoners of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol IV, p 400
↑ A Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of the Peerage and Baronetage of the British Empire, p 897
↑ The Old Halls, Manors and Families of Derbyshire, Volume 1, p 152]
↑ A genealogical and heraldic history of the commoners of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol IV, p 400
↑ The History of the County Palatine and Duchy of Lancaster, Volume 4, p 49
↑ "Townships: Hapton," in A History of the County of Lancaster: Volume 6, ed. William Farrer and J Brownbill (London: Victoria County History, 1911), 507-512. British History Online, accessed March 18, 2016,
↑ Parish of Blackburn, County of Lancaster: A History of Blackburn, Town and Parish, p 634
↑ Genealogy of the Dutton family of Pennsylvania, preceded by a history of the family in England from the time of William the Conqueror to the year 1669:, p 17
↑ The History of the County Palatine and City of Chester: Comp. from Original Evidences in Public Offices, the Harleian and Cottonian Mss., Parochial Registers, Private Muniments, Unpublished Ms. Collections of Successive Cheshire Antiquaries, and a Personal Survey of Every Township in the County; Incorporated with a Republication of King's Vale Royal and Leycester's Cheshire Antiquities, Volume 1, p 719
↑ Lancashire and Cheshire historical & genealogical notes, ed. by J. Rose. 'scrap book'., p 226
↑ The Parliamentary Representation of Lancashire, (county and Borough), 1258-1885: With Biographical and Genealogical Notices of the Members, &c, p 28
↑ Collectanea Relating to Manchester and Its Neighbourhood at Various Periods, Volume 2, p 139
↑ Transactions of the Lancashire and Cheshire Antiquarian Society, Volumes 1-10, p 186
↑ William Farrer, ed, "Final Concords of the County of Lancaster, from the Original Chirographs, or Feet of Fines Preserved in the Public Record Office, London. Part II—Edward II and Edward III. 1307 to 1377." The Record Society for the Publication of Original Documents Relating to Lancashire and Cheshire, (1903), XLVI:100, e-Book Internet Archive (https://archive.org/details/p2finalconcords00lacauoft/page/100/mode/1up : accessed 15 July, 2022). Fine No 74.
George Ormerod, Esq, LLD, FRS & FSA, "Containing the Introduction and Prolegomena, the county of the city of Chester and Bucklow Hundred", The History of the County Palatine and City of Chester; Compiled from Original Evidences in Public Offices, the Harleian and Cottonian MSS, Parochial Registers, Private Muniments, Unpublished Ms Collections of Successive Cheshire Antiquaries, and a Personal Survey of Every Township in the County; incorporated with a republication of King's Vale royal, and Leycester's Cheshire antiquities, 2nd Edition, Ed. Thomas Helsby, Esq, Vol. I, (London: George Routledge and Sons, 1882), accessed 17 December 2015, .
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The birth dates of Joane's children show she was birthing babies for both Dutton and Ratcliffe during the same time frame. She gave birth to William Talbot before 1311 (before his father's death) but after that, it's shaky.
Julia Radcliffe about 1314 (before second husband Dutton's death in 1326), and Thomas Dutton 1314. Two births about the same year with different fathers.
William Dutton 1316, Geoffrey Dutton 1318.
Robert Dutton 1320, Richard Radcliffe, born abt. 1320 before second husband Dutton's death in 1326. Again two births about the same year with different fathers.
Hancock Dutton born in 1322.
Ellen Radcliffe born abt. 1323 before second husband Dutton's death in 1326.
"According to John Burke's Commoners, she's the daughter of this Robert de Holland and sister of Thomas de Holland"
While a 1290-ish birth date might make it possible for her to be the daughter of Robert II (if the alternate 1270 birth date was used for him), as many sources say, it seems impossible for Joan to be the daughter of Maud, whose age is recorded.
As it is here, being a younger daughter of Roger I & Elizabeth is the most likely, making her the sister of Roger II, and young aunt of Thomas. 1290-1292 would be just before Elizabeth hits 40, and still young enough to be her mother.
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Julia Radcliffe about 1314 (before second husband Dutton's death in 1326), and Thomas Dutton 1314. Two births about the same year with different fathers.
William Dutton 1316, Geoffrey Dutton 1318.
Robert Dutton 1320, Richard Radcliffe, born abt. 1320 before second husband Dutton's death in 1326. Again two births about the same year with different fathers.
Hancock Dutton born in 1322. Ellen Radcliffe born abt. 1323 before second husband Dutton's death in 1326.
"2. Edmund Talbot"
It is just outright impossible for dead Edmund Talbot to be getting married and having kids after he's dead (1311).
"The Heir of Sr Edmund Talbot", p 14 "Johanna late the wife of Edmund Talbot", p 15
The great de Lacy inquisition, Feb. 16, 1311.
While a 1290-ish birth date might make it possible for her to be the daughter of Robert II (if the alternate 1270 birth date was used for him), as many sources say, it seems impossible for Joan to be the daughter of Maud, whose age is recorded.
As it is here, being a younger daughter of Roger I & Elizabeth is the most likely, making her the sister of Roger II, and young aunt of Thomas. 1290-1292 would be just before Elizabeth hits 40, and still young enough to be her mother.