NOTE: Please do not add any legendary connections not based on documentary evidence to this family. Discuss any new evidence first. The parents of Walter FitzOther are UNKNOWN - except that, as in the Domesday Book, his father's first name was, "Other". (This may not be confused with, for example, Otho Gheraldini of Florence)
Parentage
NOTE:The Earls of Kildare gave Walter FitzOther a fictional Florentine pedigree through Dominus Otho di Gheraldini of Florence.[1] Adding disproven connections to the Wikitree family-tree is incompatible with Wikitree's mission and policies.
Keats-Rohan describes Walter as Norman and says that his father's name suggests a link to Western Normandy, "perhaps a brother of Ranulf fitz Other who occurs in acts of Saint-Etienne de Caen (Actes caen., pp. 53, 76, 107, 108)".[2]
(Nevertheless the unusual name has led to many speculations in old antiquitarian books that it must be an Anglo Saxon name. As Round remarks, Domesday Book actually makes it clear that Walter's lands had been held by Anglo Saxons who were not named Other.)
Position and Properties
Walter Fitz Other was a warden of all the forests of Berkshire and castellan of Windsor during the reign of William the Conqueror. [3]
Keats-Rohan reports that:
As forester, he angered the monks of Abingdon by taking four hides in Winkfield to increase the forest of Windsor; he and his wife Beatrice and son William, subsequently restored them to Abbot Faritius (Chron. Abing. ii, 7, 132).
In the Domesday record, Leofweard "man of Walter fitzOthere" is recorded against a large number of manors in Berkshire. (folio: 61v) the name of Walter fitzOther himself is recorded against the manors of Bucklebury and Wallingford in Berkshire; Allington, Barton Stacey, Bentley in Mottisfont, Burghclere, Compton, East Cholderton, Eversley, King's Somborne, Longstock, Malshanger, Newton Stacey, Rhode, Selborne, Soberton, Sopley New Forrest, West Dean Wiltshire, Will Hall, Woodcott in Hampshire (folio: 48v); Itchen Stoke, Leckford, Liss, Penton Grafton, Winchfield in Hampshire (folio: 43v); Carshalton, Pepper Harrow, Wanborough, West Clandon in Surrey (folio: 36r); East Bedfont, Ilesworth in Middlesex (folio: 130r); Grendon Underwood in Buckinghamshire (folio: 151r) Walton-on-Thames in Surrey (folio: 36r) [4]
Marriage
As Round reports,[1] according to old books such as old versions of Burkes and The Earls of Kildare, Walter FitzOther married Gladys, daughter of Rhiwallon-ap-Cynvyn, Prince of North Wales.[5]
Round however believed these accounts were wrong and demonstrated that Walter FitzOther married Beatrice, who is mentioned as his wife in contemporary records. [6]
known children -
William FitzWalter (died c. 1154 -1160)
Gerald FitzWalter (died before 1136)
There are also some more children proposed by Round based on surname, and listed by Keats-Rohan. These are intended to explain the use of the surname Windesor in a group of East Anglian families, some of whom also used the surname Hastings. Clarence-Smith, who wrote the most recent and definitive articles on these families, is critical of the logic and suggest the surname needs no such explanation.[7]
Reginald de Windsor, a dapifer to Queen Adeliza.
Maurice de Windsor steward of Bury St Edmund (died after 1130)
Possibly a daughter who married a member of the Hastings family of Little Easton. This is a solution Keats-Rohan suggests as an adaptation to Round's proposals.
Death
Walter FitzOther of Windsor died after 1100, when property documents link him with the Abbey of Abbingdon.[8] He was succeeded by his son William between 1100 and 1116.[9] As Round explains, it is in 1116 at the latest that a document appears showing William had taken over as forester.
Descendants
Other was succeeded in the manor of Burnham by his son, Walter Fitz-Other [10]
He was ancestor of the FitzGerald and Carew families, as shown by JH Round.[1]
Fictional pedigree mashup seen here (including/up to Cosimo Gherardini) [12]
Research Notes
Alleged marriage to Gladys
a.) FitzOther m. Gladys ferch Rywallan ap Convyn, Prince of North Wales. (Collins, 1756, p. 38. citing Earl of Kerry's pedigree attested by Sir William Seager [Garter King of Arms] in 1615.[1]) ... Collins (1756), goes on to state that Kerry's pedigree is contradicted, "But by Vincent ... Beatrix is made to be his wife."[2]
b.) PER CURT -- I originally had Gwladus verch Rhiwallon, wife of Rhys ap Tewdwr, as a 2nd wife of Walter. In a post-em Curt Hofemann, curt_hofemann AT yahoo.com, cleared up some of the mystery, while opening up several more (see below), his post-em begins with my note expressing doubt:
"Her marriage to Walter Fitz Other is indicated in many internet sources. However it is not backed by Burke's Peerage. Additionally her daughter Nesta is documented to be the wife of Walter's son Gerald Fitz Walter which would not have been likely if Gerald's mother were Gwladus. She may have been mother of some of Walter's children, instead of Beatrice?"
Perhaps the answer to your above quandary is the possiblity that the Gladys/Gwladys that married Walter fitzOtho was not the dau of Rhywallon ap Cynfyn, Prince of Powys. Turton indicates Walter's wife was Gladys dau of Havallon ap Eynfyn Prince of North Wales (no further info on him). My notes do not show that Turton listed a second marriage for Walter to Beatrice.
This, if true (& with Turton, that's a BIG if), would eliminate the problem of the son of Walter marrying the dau of Gwladus verch Rhiwallon.
Regards,
Curt
The mystery is that Turton, n.d. (p. 144),[citation needed] states that Walter's wife is Beatrice (agreeing with CP (X:10), AR (line 178-2) & BP (p. 1679)). I cannot find any other mention of Walter or Gladys verch Havallon in Turton's book, although I can't guarantee that it isn't there. I see that Mike Hofemann, who may be related to Curt, has the same information in his World Connect database (mhofemann) and uses Turton and Paul McBride as sources, yet "Ancestors of Paul McBride" states that Walter's wife is Beatrice. Maybe Turton & Paul McBride changed their pedigree, yet I don't think that Turton has been updated since 1928 when it was first published. I am eliminating Gladys/Gwladys as a 2nd wife of Walter until such time as a valid source indicates that it is so, since all four published sources seem surprisingly unanimous in stating that Walter's wife was Beatrice.
Dwyn (1846), gives Nest, daughter of Rhys ap Tewdwr and Gwladus vh Rhiwallon, as the wife of Gerald of Windsor,[3] son of Walter. No mention of a marriage between Gwladus and Walter.[4]
(disputed) Robert, Lord of Eston (Estains), Essex.[8][9] - Line dies with the Hastings;[10] Cawley (2006), does not record Robert as a known child of Walter FitzOther.[11]. See notes on Robert (FitzWalter) de Windsor
m. (1100) Nesta ferch Rhys (Rhese of South Wales).[13][14] - "Nesta of Wales, daughter of RHYS ap Tudor Mawr King of Deheubarth [South Wales] & his wife Gwladus".[15][16]
m. Robert FitzWalter (father: Walter "the deacon").[19]
Merged profile
Merged profile Unknown-280007 gives Walter FitzOther birth about 1037 in Pembroke, Pembrokeshire, Wales & death about 1101 in Brecon, Breconshire, Wales or Hampshire, Middlesex, Surrey, England
Sources
↑ 1.01.11.2 Round, Origins of the Round, J. H. (1902), "The Origin of the Fitzgeralds I", The Ancestor, 1. archive.org link
↑ The Earls of Desmond by James Graves in The Journal of the Historical and Archaeological Association of Ireland; Third Series: vol: 1 no: 2 (1869) pp: 459-498 pub: Royal Soc. Antiquaries of Ireland (available as a Jstor pdf)
↑ See Clarence Smith J. A., (1966 and 1968), "Hastings of Little Easton", Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society. Vol. 2 (in two parts). "Round, who so castigated the unfortunate Clark for uniting all the Hastings families into one, has committed the same sin with his Windsors." (p.111)
↑ CAUTION: The Stanwell branch is not related to the Westmoreland branch, i.e. -- Sir William, Baron Windsor, husband of Alice de Perrers (mistress of Edward III), is NOT a descendant of Walter FitzOther. Note that early secondary sources by Burke and Collins err in trying to mix the branches.
Peerage of EnglandContaining a Genealogical and Historical Account of All the Peers of England, Now Existing... Their Descents and Collateral Lines: Their Births, Marriages, and Issues... Deaths, Places of Burial, Monuments, Epitaphs... Also Their Paternal Coats of Arms, Crests, Supporters and Mottos ... by Arthur Collins pub: 1756
Burke, J. (1833). .A General and Heraldic Dictionary of the Peerage and Baronetage of the British Empire, (Vol 2., pp. 300 - 301). H. Colburn and R. Bentley. Google Books.[20]
Dwnn, M. (1846). Heraldic visitations of Wales and part of the Marches, between the years 1586 and 1613; ed. with notes by Samuel Rush Meyrick, p. 99. Google Books.[21]
Round, (1902). The Ancestor; a quarterly review of county and family history, heraldry and antiquities, (1), pp.120 - . Archive.org. eBook.[25]
The Origins of the Fitzgeralds part 1 by J. Horace Round pub: 1902 in The Ancestor; a quarterly review of county and family history, heraldry and antiquities
Carew, Rivers. Footprints in the Sand: The Story of the Carews of Devon 1086-1945. United Kingdom: DuBois Publishing, 2018.
Old Pembroke families in the ancient county palatine of Pembroke by Owen, Henry, 1846-1919 Publication date 1902 Page 10 ff
Please remove or change the “(to 1070)” from the marriage date on this profile, and that for Beatrice, as it implies that the marriage ended in 1070. The DOBs for sons Maurice, Reginald, Gerald and William are given as 1069, 1071, “about 1075” and “about 1080” respectively, so the marriage date could be changed to “about 1069” or “before 1069”.
The profile contains an excellent discussion of why Walter is NOT married to Gwladws, who actually married Rhys ap Tewdwr. I just adopted Gwladws and proposed that she be merged with a duplicate of her profile. If there is no objection, I will disconnect her from Walter, leaving on both profiles cross-links to the other, with a discussion in Research Notes of earlier writings that make the connection.
Just wondered why there is no mention in the Sources of the 556 page book "Memoirs of the Grace Family" published in 1823 by Sheffield Grace that contains a lot of the early ancestors and their relationships. Unless I've missed it?
I am afraid that what this book says about Walter's ancestry is wrong. He did not descend from Tuscan lords - that is fiction. The Biography covers this. See also what it says about allegations of Anglo-Saxon antecedents and suggestions that his father held the same lands before 1066. Books of this kind from this period - the first half of the 19th century - are often very untrustworthy. We do not know who Walter's parents were (other than that his father was called Other). There is a heavy warning above the main part of the bio.
FitzOtho de Windsor-1 and FitzOther-5 appear to represent the same person because: Need to first merge fathers (which I proposed) and then merge these; thanks.
The name at birth should be FitzOther. FitzOtho is a frequently repeated error (noted already 100 years with his usual scorn by J H Round). No record calls him "de Windsor" either, which was is a name associated with later generations.
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