Robert Elliott Sr (abt. 1697 - 1768)

Midlem Mill did not burn down.

Stobs Castle burned down 1712, as explained to you. Have a Google. The Elliot family claimed all were destroyed, but its though one pedigree list was not lost. But how can you write a family tree going back generations if records don't exist. The 'story' of the Elliot family at Midlem Mill, in the Elliot history , is built on what occured before 1712. No idea what the thoughts are on what Midlem Mill actually was, but it wasn't vast lands & castles. First record its just 20 acres. Laird in this context just means freeholder, nothing else. It does not mean Lord.

The Midlem story is irrelevant here. As Robert Elliot of Midlem has nothing to do with Pennsylvania Elliott's of Enniskillen Ireland. That is this Robert's correct family....according to his grandson.

Y dna hasn't solved any of these Elliott's you mentioned, has it? I am currently talking with an Elliott said to be of this line. If he took a Y test, it would not prove anything, as without other testers there is no evidence his Y dna does belong to Robert's line. Even if he matched the current Elliott Y dna 'L193 confirmed group'. That is correct, is it not? So not much use for genealogy if he tests.

Just on Midlem for clarification. There were no male Elliot descendents of the Midlem Mill line, but you cannot prove or disprove this with Y dna. Because no one to compare with. Historically Gavin Elliot of Midlem Mill, had daughters & a stepson who took his name. Various stories say the stepson was a cousin, brothers son, wifes first son. It is from the stepson, the Midlem Mill line of the post 1712 history descends. Y dna can't resolve who he was as, the male line was broken generations ago. Read the pedigree chart in the link provided above for the Elliot History. Midlem Mill...bottom of chart....'presumed male line extinct'. This has long been known. In which case had Robert of Pennsylvania been the 3rd Laird, he would most likely not have Elliott Y dna.

Therefore, regarding the Pennsylvania families, until lots more people Y test, who have know family histories, it has limited genealogical use. Whereas, personal family history notes, available on line, written by Robert's grandson, David, exist, but are not even quoted here.

I adopted this profile this morning. Among many other things, I'm a co-admin of the Elliott Y-DNA Project at FTDNA. Too few people in the genealogical community don't understand this, but the Y has become the most important tool in genealogy. (Perhaps I'll give a lesson another time.) Any person well-versed in the Y will understand. An untold number of mysteries have been resolved. But we need to understand to what families the genetics belong to, thereby the genealogy. As it stand now, this genealogy here is *really* messed up. Four Robert Elliotts have been conflated:

Robert Elliott, 3rd Laird of Midlam Mill, Scotland -- who lived and died in Scotland

Robert Elliott of Hamilton, Cumberland, PA - will proved 30 Aug 1763

Robert Elliott of Middleton, Cumberland, PA - will proved 2 June 1768

Robert Elliott of Peter, Cumberland, PA - will proved 1 Oct 1768

These are four different men. No uncited stories will change that fact. Yes, it could be that there was a degree of relationship between them, but *only* the Y chromosome will reveal that.

I'm happy to discuss this with anyone but, please, reference true, authentic citations: wills, etc.

Too much here is in conflict with the facts. First, the Robert Elliott who died in Middleton, Cumberland County is not the same man as the Robert Elliott whose will was probated (meaning that he died by then) in Hamilton Twp 30 August 1763, five years before the death of our Robert. Here is an abstract:

Daughters Elizabeth Stuart, Catherine Leehrle, Barbara, Joan, and Mary. Sons Thomas, Johnston, and William.

Clearly, this is not the same family. Johnston Elliott and his siblings do not belong in this profile.

Michael,

No, not shy at all, quite the opposite regarding my line. I sent you my FTDNA kit number previously, unfortunately you looked at the wrong one. This page is not for my family so not much point in going off on a tangent about my line I thought. My Elliott's are Ulster Scots Presbyterians, not left Ireland since we arrived about 1620. Ramelton & Milford towns in North East Donegal, then later in nearby Londonderry City. Like most Ulster families still there we have not moved far in 400 years. But I don't do the trees, my cousin's do. I search for connections. I have my Ydna tested, so all good on that side & we have a good pool of 20 autosomal DNA matches all running back to a group of families interconnected in that part of Donegal. Elliott, Reagh/Rhea, Mills, Dill, Neely, Hunter, Buchanan, Moore. Lots of common Ulster Scots names, most still around. I can show how these families emigrated together, where to & where from. Reagh/Dill/Neely & Hunter 1720, Montgomery, Ulster County New York. Reagh/Dill/Neely/Hunter 1761+ Elliott 1780, Nova Scotia. Elliott, Hunter, Bradley, Gallagher, Philadelphia 1840's. One big Reagh family, later changed to Rhea go to Tennessee. One Dill family establish Dillsburg PA. All these inter marry over & over including with Elliott lines not connected to me. Like Elliott to Dill in Ohio early 1800's. These Elliott's would be from County Antrim, Ireland, from a Samuel Elliott. Most County Antrim Elliott's have no DNA connection to the tiny group of Elliott's from Antrim I Ydna connect to. Their Ydna is completely different. These other Antrim Elliott's could be the line of this Robert Elliott. They are more Armstrong in their Ydna. Elliott & Armstrong had a strong connection in the Western Marches of the Scottish Borders. So, if you find a rare Ulster name in your tree, like Latta, Bogle, McCrabb, Snodgrass.....these families are only found in a small area of Ulster. Nice & easy to see. But that's a great way to get looking when limited information is known. Look at connected families. Like most Ulster families, getting detailed records pre 1750 is nigh on impossible. As you can see here with Robert. Incorrect assumptions have resulted in a record completely wrong. Getting a Ydna match would have been a better way to go to ensure the tree was part of the Scots family first.

No Michael, that's not my kit number. Not sure where you got that.

I think both Wayne's tree for George & this tree for this Robert are wrong as far as the Ulster & Scottish connection goes. You would need to ask Wayne how he got to Robert being in his tree. But without a couple of matches from Roberts line then clarifying where he is from will not be possible. I would try comparisons with County Fermanagh Elliott's, should you find a match. How do those Elliott-Raines fit in this, are they supposed to be Elliott's?

Michael,

I thought I had posted another message but I may have accidentally deleted it before posting...just in case it pops up. I looked at the Elliott-Ranies tests on the Elliott FTDNA database & did a very quick comparison with myself. They are 18+ steps out on 67 markers from myself. Not sure how they fit in.

Michael,

The group I talk of as 'we' are the close matches to me who I converse with. We have connections to Ulster. This is our primary interest, not Scotland. There is still lots to sort in Northern Ireland first. But it is in the course of going through our searches we come across other things of interest. Like how we seem to have a connection to Perquimans & Guildford, North Carolina. But it's not something we will look into in too much depth unless more comes up. But that detail may be useful for other people. Because we have connections to Northern Ireland we are more familiar with Irish records for our locations. As such it becomes obvious fairly easily to see a tree, claiming to be from an Ulster Scots back ground that is wrong. By far the easiest way to spot a tree with mistakes is if it contains multiple locations for a family. With regard to the DNA for our group we are in RM269 L193. I will stick with our referencing. As you say R1b xxxx is obsolete but at one time it wasn't. So numbers/names of the group means little to me. Do we match or not is the interest, not necessarily, how close. We are looking at an overall picture of the families movement in Ulster. The Elliott-Raines/Rainey group you mention do not appear to be closely connected to me. Is this the family group you think are connected to Robert T Elliott? I have sent you a private message with my kit number so you can compare. I looked at Wayne's matches & there are a few in his group. Again it would require someone familiar with that particular family to identify the different ancestors mentioned. The only thing perhaps I could initially draw from it are the possible of a wider tree is back to the 18th Century, covering a number of people. In which case the I type DNA is not from a genetically recent event. In which case I would think no connection. When I refer to there being no Ydna descendents of Robert, I of course mean there are no known tested descendents. Known to me that is. So if you could get a confirmed match that would be ideal. But again one match would not prove Wayne's is incorrect. Would it not be easier to verify the trees of Wayne & his matches? But as you are saying, I assume, the Elliott-Rainey connection is correct.....I cannot confirm this or not....then it would still seem Robert T Elliott is not part of the Midlem family. There is another point I would say is incorrect. The 17th century use of a middle name by poor Ulster families....T ?? No, I think not.

Michael,

Thanks for your comments. You are of course correct in our use of the term RM269. This is just a simplification we use on some sites as not everyone's level of knowledge of DNA Haplotypes is extensive, mine included, so to explain in layman's something's not quite right, when talking to another group of Elliott's we will refer to 'our' RM269. It is R1b1a1b, but I think to write that each time when we talk generalities is not required. The point here is, was Robert T Elliott, R or I type. You asked if I thought the Midlem Mills were type R. Yes, based on the tested person with provenance. Also, mine, by virtue of the fact my close matches follow an Ulster Scots pattern of movement but we all match to Scottish mainstream Border families. The Midlem Mill tester does NOT follow the Ulster Scot movement. They did not go to Ulster, one generation was however born in Ireland, well away from the rest of us, but that was by virtue of military service. And it is that military service defines their back ground. Their ancestor would be 4th brother. He would have to make his own way in life after what would have been a reasonably good education....as you eluded to in the comment about this Robert Elliott being unable to write his will. They were an educated family. The fourth brother was commissioned an Officer in the British Marines. 18th Century British Officers were from a Class based society. He was not a poor farmer. His son also became a British Marine Officer, fought in the 1812 war, got a land grant in Nova Scotia for it, but later moved to the USA. I haven't gone into it in detail to verify everything but did basic checks on the births. So this looks fine. That a particular group.....I say this as although it's in the largest group on the Elliott database, not all are close matches. You may be able to help with advising genetic distance, as it will be useful to others. So I would not say we....me & my matches...descend from Midlem, but they & us descend from a common ancestor, maybe not too long before Midlem. Regarding your second question. Wayne is Haplotype I. A single test cannot determine the line. As you say you need a well defined DNA line for this Robert. Currently there is not a Y line that can be used for comparison. An 'event' a mistake in a tree etc can all give a false trail off one Y match. I have not looked to see who Wayne matches & where they come from if he has any. But should it be proven this Robert Elliott's descendents are I, then that really should remove the Midlem Mill story. I would be cautious using the book 'Elliot, a border Clan' as a source. Personally I think there are a lot of mistakes. The Elliot records were lost, so there are a few connections must be questionable. A big one for Midlem Mill, I will not confuse this discussion with that. However what I will say is, there was NO Clan. The Scottish Elliot's are not one family, certainly not at the time of the Border Wars. Yvdna shows this. My family were in Ulster early 1600's. I match a group of men from another part of Ulster pretty well. But we as a group hardly match anyone in Ireland close enough to say there was a reasonable connection there. The same for American matches. We just don't have close matches out of all the hundreds tested. Yet are regarded as main line Border Elliot's. So who are all the others? Rob

First, we can absolutely dispel the idea that this Robert was the third Laird. That man died in Scotland. The best evidence for that is "The Elliots, the Story of a Border Clan" by the Dowager Lady Elliott of Stobs and Sir Arthur Elliott, 11th Baronet of Stobs. Arthur's lineage is found in "Debrett's Peerage and Baronetage." (London: Debrett's Peerage, 2000), page B356. I have the pertinent pages for that at http://ancestraldata.com/ahnentafel/198/images/Elliots-of-Redheugh.pdf.

So, that part is done.

There are also people saying that he was a son of the Laird by a second but unknown marriage and that the DNA proves it. I'm a genetic genealogist. This is my take. Even if the correct people tested, the Y-DNA absolutely cannot say what women were involved or differentiate between two wives. It's a genetic impossibility. And the autosomal testing at AncestryDNA, etc typically doesn't provided information going back that far. At minimum, you'd need dozens of testers all with fully documented lineages and matching segments, which is next to impossible to acquire.

We now that our Robert was a dirt farmer and that he was illiterate. That's not fitting for the aristocracy, nor for the son of a Scottish Laird.

However, there is a marriage record in Ireland for the couple I think may be his parents and the birth of their child, Robert. I think this might be my man, but will say nothing more for fear of starting another myth.

We first need a well-proven male-lineage descendant of Robert's to Y-DNA test. But I see there's a post that talks about that. I'll comment on that next.

I'd love to hear from people who are truly interested in sorting this out.

There maybe something relatively simple to help clear up part of this, or at least remove part of it as it can be a distraction. I have been looking at another tree belonging to a family who i can be pretty sure descend directly from the Midlem Elliot family via Robert's son Henry. With paper trail & dna. I have a pre Midlem Ydna match to them, where we match many other Scots & Northern Irish Elliott's, which in turn connects to many USA Elliott's.

The haplotype for this grouping is RM269. The most prolific group of Scots Elliott's. There is only one Elliott noted here in this profile as connecting to the family in this tree who has done a Ydna test & that is Wayne Elliott, noted above. Wayne's haplotype is I. His test saying he is I-BY34592. So he is not part of the Elliot-Elliott mainstream RM grouping, so will not be part of the Midlem family. The IL grouping of Elliott's is quite small on the old Border Reiver Elliott database, so it should not be too difficult to compare locations. Fermanagh does come up in one or two of them. Then looking at the updated Border Reiver database, Wayne is on there & there are a number of direct matches with him. These could of course be his own family who have tested but there are others too i am sure. This is good in one respect, in that you are looking at a much smaller pool of connections. A lot of these connections mention a George Elliott as the start of their tree. Any others with a positve connection to the Midlem family, who has done the Ydna test could confirm the RM haplotype.

Robert signed his will with a mark. He was clearly not of an aristocratic family. Even a cursory google search tells us Robert, the second Lord died in Scotland, not in Pennsylvania. This appears to be as good as it gets for this man:

From Biographical Annals of Cumberland County, Pennsylvania

Robert Elliott, who came from Ireland in 1737 with his wife Mary and children and settled in Pennsylvania. They made their home in now Middlesex Twp, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Robert and Mary Elliott children are listed as Edward, Thomas, William, Robert, Grisel (who became the wife of Joseph McMin), Mary (who married John Irwin), Margaret (married William Clark), Ann, David, and James. Page 507-509

Anyone on the trusted list have a GEDmatch kit #? I've been searching for my Elliott's and believe this is the correct family of Elliott's. I also have surname Anderson in my family tree as well. My GEDmatch QG9415421, FTDNA B650475. I have tested on 23andme and one of my brothers has as well. My wikitree is Hamilton-23245.

This profile took hours and hours to build....plz review all the information in biography before merging-Some facts shown or cited seem questionable but presently was all I could come up with...hoping someone else has more reliable sources or new evidence to confirm or clarify some of the unclear information

Elliott-1411 and Elliot-759 are not ready to be merged because: The land records of PA at this time show a number of Robert Elliotts. It's just about impossible to know which two of them might be the same person. The records of any of them being from Ireland are a bit speculative as well. Let's hope we get new accurate documentation as records are uncovered. If you have any new information, please let me know.

Elliott-1411 and Elliot-759 appear to represent the same person because: Same wife and same son...... Worth closely reviewing the facts.

After the merge of Elliott-4599 and Eliot-759 is completed, the remaining profile should be merged with Elliott-1411

Hi Karen,

I'm trying to sort out the Robert Elliotts in Cumberland County, Pa. There is currently a merge proposed for Elliot-759, when that merge is complete your Elliott-1411 should then be merged also. In the mean time, you might want to review this profile. You'll see the Will for this man posted on Elliot-759 and notice that you have the wrong will posted for the Robert Elliott that married Mary Johnston. (Mary's husband died in 1768, and she out lived him and is mentioned in his will.) It's likely the will you have posted in Elliott-759 is his son..... but there's some confusion there too. To ad to the chaos, there's another Robert Elliott in Peters township, Cumberland Co, PA that also died in 1768.

Let me know if you have questions! Peggy

Elliott-4599 and Elliot-759 appear to represent the same person because: Same birth date and place, both married to Mary Rainy, death place the same and nearly same date.

Elliott-3246 and Elliot-759 appear to represent the same person because:

Dates, father, and wife match. Part of duplicate Elliott family.