Technical improvement required, Unknown is not appopriate in other languages

Question

A member recently reported that when she changed a LNAB from an incorect one to Inconnu, she got the following automatic message:

You entered "Inconnu" as the Last Name at Birth. If you don't know the person's last name at birth, please use "Unknown"

While Unknown is fine for English profiles, it isn't for profiles in other languages.  In this instance, French, so the appropriate word is Inconnu.  Which the program obviously recognized as meaning the same thing, else it could not have given this response.

I understand the Unknowns project works hard to reduce the number of such, but there are cases where there never will be another LNAB.  The particular case I am using as an example was a girl whose baptism gives her a given name and goes on to state ''de père et mère inconnus'' ie of unknown father and mother.  And nobody ever claimed her as their child, so trying to do anything else with it is a dead end frustration.

Can we dispense with this automatic mechanism that tries to impose the English word please?  The French version is obviously understood.

Add: and correct the Help page on the subject, which is unreasonable.

Answer 1

In my humble opinion we should look at this in a different way.

We are all familiar with the checkbox for "No Middle Name". What if there would be a checkbox introduced for the "Unknown LNAB". When you mark this checkbox, the LNAB field becomes greyed out, nothing can be filled in.

I'm not that technical, but based on my (limited) knowledge about databases this would require an additional column with a TRUE / FALSE condition and of course the visual as it shows on a profile page. How this would translate into the profile URL? I guess the "easiest" would still be to create an "unknown LNAB" URL.

By doing this there is no need to list all the possible "versions" of Unknown in I don't know how many languages.

Hope this suggestion get's some support.

Comments

If this is doable, then it's brilliant!  

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There is a reluctance to add further database fields. See Christening, Baptism, and Burial Fields which says

A problem with adding any additional database field is that it adds complication and complexity for the programming and the user interface. Creating the fields would only be the first step. We would need to adjust all the ways in which profiles are created, edited, and tracked. And to make the fields useful for anything, we would need to include them in matching, indexes, displays, etc.

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Jim, if I undertand the suggestion, then it only needs a button like the one for ''no middle name''.  On profile creation, absence of last name generates Unknown-### for a profile ID, but clicking the button makes it hide the thing.  So the visible profile would then display the given name, and any current last name the person used.  But not ''Unknown'' as a last name, which we all agree in any case isn't a last name.

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A button and a corresponding database field would only be the start of it. It would require a complete reorganisation of the code for handling and displaying Unknown profiles. That is not likely to happen.

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ok, so skip the button, is there any way that the very ''name'' Unknown in the LNAB field could itself be tied to something that would make the visible profile display a blank space.  If one looks at a profile, at the very top, the name gets displayed in large type.  Make it so that the name gets displayed ''Marie __ CLN'', instead of ''Marie Unknown CLN''.

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That sounds slightly easier, but would still be complicated. There are more than six different ways names are displayed in varying contexts, most or all containing the LNAB. The WikiTree ID would still appear as "Unknown-12345" or whatever in at least two places on the displayed profile.

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the ID is not an issue, it's quite small and is not the first thing that stares you in the face when you visit a profile.  The name in large format does.  I don't know how many people I have been in contact with who decided to stay away from WikiTree because ''c'est tout en anglais'' (it's all in English).  Having minimally this name that jumps at you when you visit not showing a large (Unknown) as part of the name would start reducing this problem a bit.

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I fully understand that it is not as easy as I described, but when there is a will... This suggestion takes effort, but imagine what comes back from it. For us, non native English speakers, most of the time working on profiles for other non-English speakers would feel greatly appreciated, but most of all heard, considered, taken seriously, and in my opinion, the recognition that all the other languages, cultures around the world might as well out-number the English/American language and culture and that this is recognised by the WT team.

There are (give and take) 7.888 billion people on this planet, of which roughly 1.35 billion speak English. That's let's say 17% of the world population (source). Don't you think it's fair that the rest of us have a say in how we can fill out "our" profiles?

Answer 2

"Unknown" is a special keyword. The error message is just stating WikiTree policy: "If the last name is unknown, use Unknown in the field. Do not use Not Sure, NN, Wife of X, Adopted, etc. Use the English word Unknown regardless of the person's native language.", and checks against a rather large list of misspellings and alternative versions of the word.

Comments

I think that what Danielle is saying, is that she knows this. I think that what she is asking for is to expand the list of recognized keywords to include words in other languages that mean that same thing, like Inconnu for French.

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Jamie, you know how huge the ''Unknown'' list is I'm sure.  This technical restriction in this day and age is passé to my mind.  

If a person comes on a page of a French person they are researching, not knowing any English, this ''Last name at birth:  Unknown'' is really going to be confusing.  It isn't ''Unknown'', it is not known and not knowable.  The profile being in French, it should read ''Inconnu''.  The program is very obviously able to recognize that version of this meaning.

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Danielle, if I see Inconnu in the LNAB, I am NOT going to know that that means Unknown.

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Tommy, shall I give you some French lessons then?   

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The mandatory use of "Unknown" for LNABs is offputting to non-anglophone members, even those who read and write English well. It just looks so wrong in our names.

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I think you had better make that Cajun French lessons. 

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There are other required words or phrases in English for use in name fields: Anonymous, No Last Name, and Unnamed Infant. See

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Name_Fields

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"Unknown" is not a last name, just a marker that the name is unknown. "Innonnu" is no more of a correct last name, even if the person was from France. It's just a special technical keyword, sort of like how even if the biography is in French the <references /> tag won't work if it's not spelled in English.

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Jamie

so just how hard would it be to adapt the program to allow other languages for this purpose?  It may be just a marker, but Unknown is still in a specific language, English in this case.  There's an expression in French about the result ''ça jure dans le décor'' (literal translation: it swears in the decor; correct meaning: it doesn't fit with the rest).

Jim,

those are very limited for the most part, for living profiles etc.  And unnamed infant is again in English.

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I'm not Jamie, but as I have some experience with databases, I can tell you that the answer is that it would be quite hard to accomplish what you're seeking. The database can only have a single way of representing "Unknown" because databases work by cross-referencing indexes, and there needs to be a unique identifier representing Unknown for this to be done efficiently.

To accomplish a multi-lingual unknown would mean establishing a second field, so you'd have one field that actually signifies that the last name is unknown and another field for the text that is desired to represent that the name is unknown in the language of the profile manager's choosing. Then you have to write a whole lot of software to synchronize the two values and present a means for people to select how they'd like the last name to read. Then you have to teach everyone what all the different words are that represent Unknown in the various languages that people choose to use.

I support the notion that Wikitree could and should do more to de-Anglicize itself. In this particular case, though, I think you've hit on a really tough spot.

Perhaps a language neutral means of representing it would be better. For example, three underscores ("___") could be the symbol for an unknown last name. To accomplish this, the software would be modified so that everywhere it treats "Unknown" specially, it would instead do that for "___", and all the current values of "Unknown" would have to be updated to "___". This amount of work to accomplish this would still be quite significant, but it would be orders of mangitude less work than trying to make the Unknown flag multilingual.

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hmm, if I am following you correctly, this ''___'' would also answer the issue of people who simply don't have a last name, as some cultures don't have that at all.  And like this girl, whose parentage is totally unknown, so she actually has no last name.  Would also eliminate the work-around by projects that deal with first peoples to add the tribal name as a LNAB.

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"Known to have No Last Name" and "Unknown last name" are different situations, and should be distinguished in the database, not treated the same way.

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I really like ___ if possible technically. 

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Underscore is hard to read (see) on a page as it can be interpreted as a space where data should be entered. It would be better to have something like ###### as a filler or ??????.

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I'm all for that Jim, but currently they all get given Unknown except for the tribal workarounds.

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Not so. For example:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/No_Last_Name-102

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Dave, I would agree with those except it might be hard for people to remember exactly how many symbols to use (this also applies to underscores, I freely admit).

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didn't know that could be done frankly.  Do you think it could be adapted to allow other languages?  Best format for French would be Aucun nom.  (given names are called Prénom, so no confusion there).

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According to policy, "No Last Name" is only supposed to be used in the Current Name field in rare cases for modern profiles: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Name_Fields#Special_rules_for_required_fields

Generally, there are project-specific guidelines for profiles that don't have last names (such as indigenous people, enslaved people, aristocrats, etc).

I would suggest posting a proposal for an addition to the France Project naming guidelines: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:France_Project_Guidelines_for_Name_Fields

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Jamie,  why France project?  I speak French, and have never lived in France, I visited once many moons ago.

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Earlier you mentioned a "French person", not just a French-speaking person, so I made an assumption. So propose it for whatever country's project naming guidelines they would fall under.

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Jamie, French person is a short form, could have said Francophone, but since I deal mostly with older profiles, and the term didn't exist back then, I don't much use it.  

As for project specific guidelines, you are possibly not aware of just how many countries have French as first or second language.  France, Canada, Switzerland, Belgium, Egypt, Morocco, Madagascar, India (Chandernagore)..... the list goes on and on.  So trying to do it by project would be missing lots of areas on the planet that don't have a project.  And there are lots of other languages beside French that could use a fix on this issue, viz Eva's answer above.

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I'm aware that French is spoken in many countries, which is why there shouldn't be a single guideline for all Francophone profiles. What's right for the French speakers of one country may not make sense for another.

I understand you think that using "Unknown" doesn't look right with non-English names, but it doesn't really look right in any name (since it isn't actually a name)! And considering the rest of the UI is in English, is it really out of place?

Maybe at some point there will be a better solution to the limitation of there being a LNAB required for all profiles, but until then the policy is to use "Unknown" in English (and only English) if the name is Unknown, or one of naming guidelines for those without a last name at birth.

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hi Jamie,

The question that nobody has answered, it isn't specifically asked, so am correcting that here, is WHY is Unknown a Marker / Special Keyword?  And why should it be?  Or not, as the case may be.  Seems to me that Inconnu fulfills the need just as well as Unknown, since the lnab box demands that it get something in it.  Creates the profile ID from it.

Considering there are major unspecified changes to the system being planned for this year, this is the perfect time to get tech and policy better aligned.

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Unknown is the only word that is treated differently than any other word you put in the LNAB field. It is treated as a wild card in both the regular search and duplicate search. Adding additional keywords to perform the same function would drastically increase the time it takes to perform these searches.

This is the perfect time to get tech and policy better aligned.

As stated earlier, the policy is to use "Unknown" in English. So the tech (including the error message that sparked your post) is in line with policy.

There will be a front-end redesign this year, but that has nothing to do with the system requirement to have a LNAB. The major backend upgrades were already done (with the exception of a database software upgrade happening next week).

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ok Jamie.  I was really thinking of the basic tenet ''Use their conventions'' when I mentioned aligning policy and tech.

Answer 3

Hi Danielle, I am native English speaker, nevertheless follow this discussion with interest.

if using  "Inconnu" is a problem, then it is a problem in Wikitree

Comments

“Die Steve”.

Who can tell me what language this is from?

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Tommy, could be Latin, German, English, don't know what else.  Profiles can get marked with the person's language, which obviates the need to figure out which language a word is in, you're told right off the bat.

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It's English, why would you be saying "The Steve"?

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If it's English then it's not United States of America English.

How many other versions of English are there?

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Emily, ''The Steve'' could be a monicker, like, hey, this is THE man!  

Tommy, how about real English, from England?  

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Danielle has a good point, but I'm not a native speaker of either. My mother tongue is Australian English, which is somewhat more mutually intelligible with the Queen- wait, no, is the expression "the King's English" now? Is The King more prestigious than The Steve?

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lol, not sure, he's not doing too well last I heard.  Have to ask my Australian cousin what she thinks about this, she's a teacher.  Since I'm in Canada, the English I use is more geared towards the King's or Queen's English.  

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He might know of The Bart, The ?

Answer 4

I understand the need for maintaining consistency, and it makes sense to have a universal placeholder that translates consistently across languages.

I also understand people's desire to see Wiki pages in their language. However, I don't understand Wikitree's reluctance to address this with translate extensions. As we get more users from around the world, this problem will continue to grow.

Incorporating multiple languages into Wiki would enhance its accessibility and reach. I know we want to keep simplicity for users, but I believe we could achieve both by adding extension interfaces to Wikitree.

Answer 5

One of the problems stated is that: The name in large format does.  I don't know how many people I have been in contact with who decided to stay away from WikiTree because ''c'est tout en anglais'' (it's all in English).  Having minimally this name that jumps at you when you visit not showing a large (Unknown) as part of the name would start reducing this problem a bit.

Instead of fixing the input (which seems difficult), could we fix the output of the name at the top of the profile? Substitute the "Unknown" word for the word of the language marked on the profile (there is already a place for that).  Have a table lookup for the designated version of the name for each language.  Use that version for the name at the top of the public view of the profile.

Comments

It would be simpler to use a question mark:

Marie (?) Martin

Would people consider that elegant enough as a language-neutral solution?

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Jim, that would work.