Agnes (Lacy) Talbot

Born [date unknown] in Herefordshire, England

Descendants

Died about 1140 in Herefordshire, England

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NOTE. The death year is only a rough indication. The parents are also uncertain.

Biography

Agnes the wife of Geoffrey Talbot is known from the Pipe Roll of 1129/30 when she owed 2 gold marks to have her dower rights.^[1][2]

As reported by Complete Peerage:^[1]

Between 1108 and 1126 Geoffrey, with his wife Agnes and their son Geoffrey, had made an agreement with the Abbot of Colchester as to the advowson of the church of Thorington, Essex;^[3] and Geoffrey and Agnes granted land in Vange to the abbey — a grant witnessed by Sibilla domini filia^[4] (Citing: Cartularia Mon. Sci. Joh. Bapt. de Colecestria, Roxburghe Club, pp. 546,142)

It is therefore naturally assumed that the Geoffrey Talbot who appears in that Pipe roll, rendering account for his father's lands, is the son of Geoffrey (I) Talbot and Agnes. Geoffrey I must have died around 1128.

Agnes and Geoffrey I Talbot probably also had a daughter who connects them to the Lacy family, but there are different ideas about who this daughter was. See Research notes. There are two proposals:

• Sybil who married John fitz Payn and was eventually the heir of Geoffrey II Talbot. (Older proposal.)^[1]
• Adeline or Adelisa, the wife of Hugh de Lacy. (Newer proposal.)^[2]

Research notes

The parents of Agnes parents are not certain and at least two theories are well-known. Wikitree is currently (January 2024) following the proposals of Keats-Rohan.

Both proposals imply a daughter to Agnes, but not the same daughter!

• Complete Peerage proposed that:

• Agnes was a daughter of Walter de Lacy. This would explain why her son Geoffrey II Talbot was described in the near-contemporary Gesta Stephani as a cognatus, or blood relative, of Gilbert de Lacy (apparently a grandson of Walter).^[1]
• Complete Peerage also proposes that Sybil, the heiress of Geoffrey II, was his sister, and therefore a daughter of Geoffrey I and Agnes.

• More recently, Keats-Rohan and others believe Complete Peerage was wrong, citing the Lacy study of Wightman.^[5]

• She suggests instead that Agnes is probably the daughter of Helto dapifer, the man who held her husband's lands, the so called barony of Swanscombe, in 1086 (Domesday).^[2]
• Based upon the work of Wightman, she asserts that Sybil is actually the daughter of Hugh de Lacy (Walter's son).

There must be more to this story. Sybil sometimes used the surname Talbot according to Keats-Rohan, who says that there is clearly a link between the Talbots and Lacys and proposes that Adeline or Adelisa, the wife of Hugh de Lacy, was a daughter of Geoffrey and Agnes, making Sybil their granddaughter. This would also explain why Gilbert de Lacy was a cognatus of Geoffrey II Talbot.

Sources

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3} Complete Peerage, 2nd ed., Vol.9, p.425
2. ↑ ^{2.0 2.1 2.2} Keats-Rohan, Domesday People, p.231 (her husband's article)
3. ↑ Cartularium Monasterii Sancti Johannis Baptiste de Colecestria (Volume II) p.546
4. ↑ Cartularium Monasterii Sancti Johannis Baptiste de Colecestria (Volume I) p.142.
5. ↑ W.E. Wightman, The Lacy family in England and Normandy, 1066-1194, https://archive.org/details/lacyfamilyinengl0000wigh, see p.175.

• Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, p.1122
• Sanders, English Baronies p.144 (concerning the barony of Swanscombe)